美国国家公共电台 NPR--The committee investigating the insurrection could present new testimony

The committee investigating the insurrection could present new testimony¹

Transcript²

NPR's A Martínez talks to Denver Riggleman, a former Republican congressman³ and Jan. 6 committee adviser⁴, about the House panel's upcoming hearing into the attack on the U.S. Capitol.

A MART?NEZ, HOST:

We're joined now by former Republican Congressman Denver Riggleman of Virginia. He's a former military intelligence officer who served for eight months as a senior adviser to the January 6 committee. And he's written about that in his book, "The Breach⁵: The Untold⁶ Story Of The Investigation⁷ Into January 6th." Congressman, what new evidence do you think the committee could show us today?

DENVER RIGGLEMAN: Well, you talked about the service texts, which I think are going to be very important. You know, some individual the other day told me, well, they don't have the texts on the fifth or sixth. But even before that or after that, it could be very important with what the Secret Service was talking about. But I also think it's going to be a summation⁸ from the first hearings to these hearings. And I do believe, with everything else you heard, you know, in the prior newscast, when you're talking about some of the things they're going to be looking at, new testimony, I also don't want people to forget about Roger Stone in the Danish documentary and what he was saying about violence that day. So I expect to see also more links between the White House or people around Trump⁹ and the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers.

MART?NEZ: And those texts, that's where we could find out a lot more about Ginni Thomas' role?

RIGGLEMAN: Well, let me tell you, Ginni Thomas - one of the things that really interests me about Ginni Thomas is we talked about - and I heard, you know, about her contacts with John Eastman. But I think it's even more important that - of her direct contact with Mark Meadows and the fact that she was working with congressional offices and also mentioned that she was in contact with Jared Kushner. So you're talking about an individual married to a Supreme¹⁰ Court justice who had incredible access to every part of government. And I think her texts, I believe, were the most important in the Meadows text messages because they indicated the saturation¹¹ of conspiracy¹² theories and really QAnon throughout the entire GOP of, quote-unquote, "elite¹³" - right? - and how they were using that to direct policy and to direct a strategy to overturn the election.

MART?NEZ: And Ginni Thomas did wind up being interviewed by the committee about those text messages with the White House chief of staff, Mark Meadows. What could they have learned from her?

RIGGLEMAN: Well, I hope that they ask some pretty probing questions about how often she talked with Jared. Did she work with Louie Gohmert's office, which was indicated in the text messages? Did she believe what she was actually saying when it came to putting, you know, Biden's family in Gitmo or the fact that she thought there was a, you know, sort of this presence of military - right? - to enforce these watermarked ballots¹⁴ - ridiculousness. I hope they asked her all those questions, and I hope it was taped so they can show the American public because the issue that you have right now with people at these levels is that they seem to be treated in a - with a different standard. And I think the data is the data, and we need to follow that, regardless of who the individuals are. And again, I think it's more important - yes, Eastman, Meadows, but also her connection directly, you know, next to Trump, like Jared and things of that nature.

MART?NEZ: And you said there was a nine-second call from one of the general numbers inside the Trump White House to one of the rioters while the attack was happening. Nine seconds doesn't sound like a lot, but it is once you count it off. You'd be surprised how long it does feel. What could a nine-second call possibly tell us?

RIGGLEMAN: Nine seconds is a lifetime to a counterterrorism analyst¹⁵. And when you look at what happened on the text messages, you could have a short text messages, say, from Scott Perry to Mark Meadows, that say, go to signal. You can say, get out of there. You can say, where you at? You can say, hey, we need not to talk anymore or we need to go encrypted, go dark. Let's go to somewhere else. So, you know, anybody who says that nine seconds isn't a long time has never done counterterrorism analysis, and they're just not quite aware of how data works. And we have to know all those White House phone numbers.

But here's really where I want to hit even harder. How about Bianca Gracia? And how about what we learned because of my book "The Breach" that Kellye SoRelle, an Oath Keeper, was texting with Andrew Giuliani while he was in the White House? You know, we shake that data tree, and Andrew Giuliani falls out. So, A, I mean, that's part of the issue that I have here is, you know, we need to find out who all those White House numbers were calling. And it could be just a technical glitch¹⁶ or they can't get those numbers at the time. But those phone numbers will indicate which people, at what desk and what - and connected to what cellphones were actually talking to people that were involved in January 6.

MART?NEZ: Now, you opposed the committee sending a criminal referral to the Justice Department. You want the DOJ to make that call. What kind of evidence would you have to hear to change your mind on that?

RIGGLEMAN: Well, the thing is is that they've done such a great job. The committee has done a great job in the public trust sphere. I'm really not opposed to it if they do it or not. I just don't think it's really necessary. And right now, if there is data-sharing going on between the committee and the DOJ, which I hope there is, right? I hope there's a bit of a tiger team that's sharing data. My guess is that some of that metadata that's come from call detail records or from text messages or even from open source intelligence research and the thousands of interviews they conducted can be blended to show not only who was actually directing what was going on on January 6 with his words and actions, like Donald Trump, but all this - but all the second- and third-tier actors who are also involved. And I think the DOJ is looking at that pretty hard.

MART?NEZ: That's Denver Riggleman, former Republican congressman and former adviser to the January 6 committee. Thank you very much.

RIGGLEMAN: Thank you, sir.

1 testimony   

n.证词；见证，证明

参考例句：

• The testimony given by him is dubious.他所作的证据是可疑的。
• He was called in to bear testimony to what the police officer said.他被传入为警官所说的话作证。

2 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

3 Congressman   

n.（美）国会议员

参考例句：

• He related several anecdotes about his first years as a congressman.他讲述自己初任议员那几年的几则轶事。
• The congressman is meditating a reply to his critics.这位国会议员正在考虑给他的批评者一个答复。

4 adviser   

n.劝告者，顾问

参考例句：

• They employed me as an adviser.他们聘请我当顾问。
• Our department has engaged a foreign teacher as phonetic adviser.我们系已经聘请了一位外籍老师作为语音顾问。

5 breach   

n.违反，不履行；破裂；vt.冲破，攻破

参考例句：

• We won't have any breach of discipline.我们不允许任何破坏纪律的现象。
• He was sued for breach of contract.他因不履行合同而被起诉。

6 untold   

adj.数不清的，无数的

参考例句：

• She has done untold damage to our chances.她给我们的机遇造成了不可估量的损害。
• They suffered untold terrors in the dark and huddled together for comfort.他们遭受着黑暗中的难以言传的种种恐怖，因而只好挤在一堆互相壮胆。

7 investigation   

n.调查，调查研究

参考例句：

• In an investigation,a new fact became known, which told against him.在调查中新发现了一件对他不利的事实。
• He drew the conclusion by building on his own investigation.他根据自己的调查研究作出结论。

8 summation   

n.总和；最后辩论

参考例句：

• The exhibition was a summation of his life's work.这次展览汇集了他一生中典型的作品。
• The defense attorney phrased his summation at last.最后，辩护律师作了辩论总结。

9 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

10 supreme   

adj.极度的，最重要的；至高的，最高的

参考例句：

• It was the supreme moment in his life.那是他一生中最重要的时刻。
• He handed up the indictment to the supreme court.他把起诉书送交最高法院。

11 saturation   

n.饱和(状态)；浸透

参考例句：

• The company's sales are now close to saturation in many western countries.这家公司的产品销售量在许多西方国家已接近饱和。
• Road traffic has reached saturation point.公路交通已达到饱和点。

12 conspiracy   

n.阴谋，密谋，共谋

参考例句：

• The men were found guilty of conspiracy to murder.这些人被裁决犯有阴谋杀人罪。
• He claimed that it was all a conspiracy against him.他声称这一切都是一场针对他的阴谋。

13 elite   

n.精英阶层；实力集团；adj.杰出的，卓越的

参考例句：

• The power elite inside the government is controlling foreign policy.政府内部的一群握有实权的精英控制着对外政策。
• We have a political elite in this country.我们国家有一群政治精英。

14 ballots   

n.投票表决( ballot的名词复数 )；选举；选票；投票总数v.（使）投票表决( ballot的第三人称单数 )

参考例句：

• They're counting the ballots. 他们正在计算选票。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• The news of rigged ballots has rubbed off much of the shine of their election victory. 他们操纵选票的消息使他们在选举中获得的胜利大为减色。 来自《简明英汉词典》

15 analyst   

n.分析家，化验员；心理分析学家

参考例句：

• What can you contribute to the position of a market analyst?你有什么技能可有助于市场分析员的职务？
• The analyst is required to interpolate values between standards.分析人员需要在这些标准中插入一些值。

16 glitch   

n.干扰；误操作，小故障

参考例句：

• There is a glitch in the computer program somewhere.这个计算机程序中的某个部分有点小问题。
• It could just be a random glitch that can be solved by restarting the machine.可能只是一个小故障，重新启动主机就能解决了。