In Russia's war on Ukraine, India has remained neutral. Will it stay that way?

In Russia's war on Ukraine, India has remained neutral. Will it stay that way?

Transcript¹

NPR's Steve Inskeep talks to Victoria Nuland, under secretary of state for political affairs, about U.S. efforts to court India's support and avert² a commitment to Russia.

A MARTINEZ, HOST:

The United States is making a bold prediction about India. Both sides in Ukraine's war have been lobbying for India's support. And a top U.S. diplomat³ insists that Russia will be sorely disappointed. She spoke⁴ with our co-host Steve Inskeep.

STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE⁵: Victoria Nuland is a veteran diplomat, undersecretary of state and one of many officials who've been traveling to India so much it's a wonder they don't bump into each other at the airport. Russia's foreign minister is visiting this week. Russian bank officials were already there. Nuland is among several British and U.S. officials all coming because India is not fully⁶ committed to either side. The world's largest democracy has become more aligned⁷ with the United States in recent years. But as Nuland knows, India buys Russian weapons and Russian oil and has not embraced Western sanctions.

VICTORIA NULAND: Well, you know, the Indian situation is a little bit unique because almost their entire ground force uses Russian weaponry. And so they are heavily dependent, and they worry about their security. So we've been engaged in an intensive conversation with them. I think that they are quite uncomfortable, particularly as they see how Russian weapons have performed and the fact that they're likely not going to be a very reliable supplier going forward. And you know, Steve, for a long time, the United States was not willing to supply weapons to India ourselves. So now that has changed. And now we are talking about how we help them make that transition.

INSKEEP: However, those weapons, those Russian weapons underline a larger truth. India has been friendly with Russia, and before that, the Soviet⁸ Union, for many decades. And that does seem clear in some of the actions they're taking or declining to take now.

NULAND: Well, Steve, I would say that one of the things that we've talked about intensively - I talked about it on my trip - is that Russia is increasingly aligned with China. So should India come into conflict with China, it can't count on Russia being in its corner - and that increasingly we are seeing the autocracies⁹ band together. And that's not where India wants to be as one of the world's largest and oldest democracies.

INSKEEP: But what did you think about when officials from the Russian central bank met officials from India's central bank to talk about mechanisms¹¹ they could use to evade¹² Western sanctions?

NULAND: We've been talking intensively to India about the importance - if they cannot join all of our sanctions, at least ensuring that Russia doesn't use India to evade them. The Indians are not going to be fooled by Russian ploys¹³. But that doesn't stop the Russians from going all around the world for cash now. And the reason they're doing that is because our sanctions have been very crushing on their economy.

INSKEEP: A deputy national security adviser¹⁴ from the United States also traveled to India ahead of the Russian foreign minister's visit and warned - this is a quote which we found in the Indian media. "There are consequences to countries that actively¹⁵ attempt to circumvent¹⁶ or backfill the sanctions." What consequences are you warning India about here?

NULAND: In our conversations with India, whether it was my conversations, Daleep Singh's or Secretary Blinken's - this is not a matter of warning. It's simply a matter of reminding India that Russia will try to abuse their long-standing defense¹⁷ relationship to get advantages here and that it is not a good bet to help Russia out during this brutal¹⁸ conflict.

INSKEEP: I just want to make sure that I understand what you think is going to happen. You don't believe - is this what you're telling me? - you don't believe that India's central bank is going to go into business with some sanctions-evading mechanism¹⁰ with Russia's central bank. You don't believe that India is going to be that helpful to Russia? Is that what you're saying?

NULAND: I think the Russians are going to be sorely disappointed by their partnership¹⁹ with India, if our consultations²⁰ in recent days and weeks are any example. Russia has nothing to offer India. They increasingly know that. And our partnership is far more valuable. And we are working to strengthen that.

INSKEEP: You've mentioned India's work with large democracies. They're, of course, part of this quartet of four big democracies facing China in one way or another. But the reality is that India itself, as I'm sure you know very well, has become less democratic in recent years. The media are less free. Political opposition²¹ is less tolerated than it was. Is it possible that Prime Minister Narendra Modi sees himself a little bit more like Vladimir Putin or Xi Jinping than he does the West?

NULAND: You know, that is not the impression that we have. Obviously, we talk frankly²² to all of our partners, including India, when we have concerns about some of the issues that you raised. And we do have those concerns - and that all of us as democracies, the United States included, have to work on the places where we are not open enough, we are not free enough. And we're talking about that. But the notion that India wants to live the way China lives or live the way Russia lives - we have no indications of that. And on the contrary, I think they are looking for ways to divest²³ themselves of this historic relationship, and they are understanding that it is a bad bet for them going forward.

INSKEEP: What is the hardest question you faced, the hardest challenge you faced from an Indian official during your visit?

NULAND: You know, I think the most difficult issue is how quickly they can be helped by the rest of us to get out of these legacy²⁴ relationships, whether it's their dependency on certain kinds of oil and other energy products from Russia, whether it's their dependency for their land forces and others. You know, they want to do more with us. And this - these kinds of transitions take time. Like a lot of us, they're having to do some rebudgeting as fuel prices go up. So the question is simply, how much can we do together in this context to strengthen the democratic world, and can we do it fast enough?

INSKEEP: Given the price, as you mentioned, is India going to buy some more Russian oil, and is the United States going to have to look the other way on that one?

NULAND: So when we made the decision - and Canada did, and a number of other countries - that we would completely ban the import of Russian oil, it was relatively²⁵ straightforward²⁶ for us to do because we have very little exposure. But as you know, some of our other allies and partners, including allies in Europe, India, have some dependencies that it's going to take time for them to break. So we were understanding both in the German context and the Indian context, a couple of other countries, that they would need to continue to do some importing but that they needed to do it within agreed channels, and they needed to ensure that they were not stockpiling extra at this moment. And that's the understanding that we have with India, even as we work together to try to help them wean off of Russian energy.

INSKEEP: Your understanding is they're not going to stockpile extra Russian oil. Is that what you said?

NULAND: Our understanding is that they will only import at the same level that they have traditionally imported and that we will try to reduce that over the coming months and years because they are understanding that this dependence²⁷ on the Russians is, again, not a good deal for India.

INSKEEP: Victoria Nuland is undersecretary of state for political affairs and one of many global officials who have recently visited India. Thanks so much.

NULAND: Thank you, Steve.

(SOUNDBITE OF HANDBOOK'S "STARRY SKIES")

1 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

2 avert   

v.防止，避免；转移(目光、注意力等)

参考例句：

• He managed to avert suspicion.他设法避嫌。
• I would do what I could to avert it.我会尽力去避免发生这种情况。

3 diplomat   

n.外交官，外交家；能交际的人，圆滑的人

参考例句：

• The diplomat threw in a joke, and the tension was instantly relieved.那位外交官插进一个笑话，紧张的气氛顿时缓和下来。
• He served as a diplomat in Russia before the war.战前他在俄罗斯当外交官。

4 spoke   

n.（车轮的）辐条；轮辐；破坏某人的计划；阻挠某人的行动 v.讲，谈（speak的过去式）；说；演说；从某种观点来说

参考例句：

• They sourced the spoke nuts from our company.他们的轮辐螺帽是从我们公司获得的。
• The spokes of a wheel are the bars that connect the outer ring to the centre.辐条是轮子上连接外圈与中心的条棒。

5 byline   

n.署名；v.署名

参考例句：

• His byline was absent as well.他的署名也不见了。
• We wish to thank the author of this article which carries no byline.我们要感谢这篇文章的那位没有署名的作者。

6 fully   

adv.完全地，全部地，彻底地；充分地

参考例句：

• The doctor asked me to breathe in,then to breathe out fully.医生让我先吸气，然后全部呼出。
• They soon became fully integrated into the local community.他们很快就完全融入了当地人的圈子。

7 aligned   

adj.对齐的，均衡的

参考例句：

• Make sure the shelf is aligned with the top of the cupboard.务必使搁架与橱柜顶端对齐。

8 Soviet   

adj.苏联的，苏维埃的；n.苏维埃

参考例句：

• Zhukov was a marshal of the former Soviet Union.朱可夫是前苏联的一位元帅。
• Germany began to attack the Soviet Union in 1941.德国在1941年开始进攻苏联。

9 autocracies   

n.独裁( autocracy的名词复数 )；独裁统治；独裁政体；独裁政府

参考例句：

• She did persuade herself that there were no autocracies save that of Prussia. 她自己深信，除了普鲁士以外，世界上哪儿都没有独裁政府了。 来自辞典例句
• Autocracies can function perfectly well without news, but democracies cannot. 独裁国家没有新闻业，可以依旧运转；民主国家却不行。 来自互联网

10 mechanism   

n.机械装置；机构，结构

参考例句：

• The bones and muscles are parts of the mechanism of the body.骨骼和肌肉是人体的组成部件。
• The mechanism of the machine is very complicated.这台机器的结构是非常复杂的。

11 mechanisms   

n.机械( mechanism的名词复数 )；机械装置；[生物学] 机制；机械作用

参考例句：

• The research will provide direct insight into molecular mechanisms. 这项研究将使人能够直接地了解分子的机理。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• He explained how the two mechanisms worked. 他解释这两台机械装置是如何工作的。 来自《简明英汉词典》

12 evade   

vt.逃避，回避；避开，躲避

参考例句：

• He tried to evade the embarrassing question.他企图回避这令人难堪的问题。
• You are in charge of the job.How could you evade the issue?你是负责人，你怎么能对这个问题不置可否？

13 ploys   

n.策略，手法( ploy的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• The boss tried many ploys to get customers into the store. 老板用尽各种伎俩引顾客上门。 来自辞典例句
• She tried many ploys to get the boy interested in her. 她试过很多伎俩去赢取男孩的青睐。 来自辞典例句

14 adviser   

n.劝告者，顾问

参考例句：

• They employed me as an adviser.他们聘请我当顾问。
• Our department has engaged a foreign teacher as phonetic adviser.我们系已经聘请了一位外籍老师作为语音顾问。

15 actively   

adv.积极地，勤奋地

参考例句：

• During this period all the students were actively participating.在这节课中所有的学生都积极参加。
• We are actively intervening to settle a quarrel.我们正在积极调解争执。

16 circumvent   

vt.环绕，包围；对…用计取胜，智胜

参考例句：

• Military planners tried to circumvent the treaty.军事策略家们企图绕开这一条约。
• Any action I took to circumvent his scheme was justified.我为斗赢他的如意算盘而采取的任何行动都是正当的。

17 defense   

n.防御，保卫；[pl.]防务工事；辩护，答辩

参考例句：

• The accused has the right to defense.被告人有权获得辩护。
• The war has impacted the area with military and defense workers.战争使那个地区挤满了军队和防御工程人员。

18 brutal   

adj.残忍的，野蛮的，不讲理的

参考例句：

• She has to face the brutal reality.她不得不去面对冷酷的现实。
• They're brutal people behind their civilised veneer.他们表面上温文有礼，骨子里却是野蛮残忍。

19 partnership   

n.合作关系，伙伴关系

参考例句：

• The company has gone into partnership with Swiss Bank Corporation.这家公司已经和瑞士银行公司建立合作关系。
• Martin has taken him into general partnership in his company.马丁已让他成为公司的普通合伙人。

20 consultations   

n.磋商（会议）( consultation的名词复数 )；商讨会；协商会；查找

参考例句：

• Consultations can be arranged at other times by appointment. 磋商可以通过预约安排在其他时间。 来自《现代汉英综合大词典》
• Consultations are under way. 正在进行磋商。 来自《现代汉英综合大词典》

21 opposition   

n.反对，敌对

参考例句：

• The party leader is facing opposition in his own backyard.该党领袖在自己的党內遇到了反对。
• The police tried to break down the prisoner's opposition.警察设法制住了那个囚犯的反抗。

22 frankly   

adv.坦白地，直率地；坦率地说

参考例句：

• To speak frankly, I don't like the idea at all.老实说，我一点也不赞成这个主意。
• Frankly speaking, I'm not opposed to reform.坦率地说，我不反对改革。

23 divest   

v.脱去，剥除

参考例句：

• I cannot divest myself of the idea.我无法消除那个念头。
• He attempted to divest himself of all responsibilities for the decision.他力图摆脱掉作出该项决定的一切责任。

24 legacy   

n.遗产，遗赠；先人(或过去)留下的东西

参考例句：

• They are the most precious cultural legacy our forefathers left.它们是我们祖先留下来的最宝贵的文化遗产。
• He thinks the legacy is a gift from the Gods.他认为这笔遗产是天赐之物。

25 relatively   

adv.比较...地，相对地

参考例句：

• The rabbit is a relatively recent introduction in Australia.兔子是相对较新引入澳大利亚的物种。
• The operation was relatively painless.手术相对来说不痛。

26 straightforward   

adj.正直的，坦率的；易懂的，简单的

参考例句：

• A straightforward talk is better than a flowery speech.巧言不如直说。
• I must insist on your giving me a straightforward answer.我一定要你给我一个直截了当的回答。

27 dependence   

n.依靠，依赖；信任，信赖；隶属

参考例句：

• Doctors keep trying to break her dependence of the drug.医生们尽力使她戒除毒瘾。
• He was freed from financial dependence on his parents.他在经济上摆脱了对父母的依赖。