美国国家公共电台 NPR--The top U.S. military officer discusses Ukraine's renewed efforts to push Russia out

The top U.S. military officer discusses Ukraine's renewed efforts to push Russia out

Transcript¹

NPR's Steve Inskeep talks to Gen. Mark Milley, chairman of the Joint² Chiefs of Staff, about Ukraine's counteroffensive against Russian troops at the Dnipro River, and the long game in the war.

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

The map of Ukraine shows it's divided by the Dnieper River. It cuts the country roughly in half, and Russia's invasion has mostly come to its east. But here and there, Russian forces have crossed to the west bank, and that includes the place where they crossed to capture the city of Kherson. Now Ukraine has begun a counteroffensive, hoping to trap those Russian forces in a place where the water makes it hard to retreat. It's a test of whether either of these large and well-armed forces can gain a real advantage. We discussed this with U.S. General Mark Milley. President Biden's top military advisor³ was in Germany meeting with Ukraine's other allies.

MARK MILLEY: The Russians did succeed in getting across the Dnieper River, so in the vicinity of Kherson.

INSKEEP: Right.

MILLEY: So it's a small salient of Russian forces that are across the river. So this counteroffensive is designed to restore the river line, if you will.

INSKEEP: Do they have a real opportunity, General, to press those Russian forces back against the river and trap them there?

MILLEY: Well, there's a series of bridges that are across the Dnieper River, and those bridges have been destroyed or partially⁴ destroyed. Now, the Russians continue to try to repair them on essentially⁵ a daily basis. So the short answer to your question is, yes, there's a good possibility of that, but I wouldn't say it's a certainty. But the Ukrainians have massed significant amount of ground combat power. And we'll see how this plays out in the coming days and weeks.

INSKEEP: I want to think this through. We should just describe for a layman⁶, Russia has a bigger army, but if Ukraine can get more forces in a local area, they can have an advantage there. Some wounded soldiers from the Ukrainian side talking to The Washington Post, though, think they don't have the advantage. They said they still had less artillery⁷ and technology than the Russians. Do you think that's correct?

MILLEY: Well, as an overall statement, that's true, in terms of a net assessment⁸ between the country of Russia and the country of Ukraine. But part of the skill of generalship in battle is to concentrate enough forces at the time and place of your choosing to achieve the desired effects. And that is what the Ukrainians are trying to do. So I think that it's possible that in certain areas where those soldiers were that - you know, wars, you get different perspectives on combat. So if you're talking to an individual soldier, especially one who was wounded, then the likelihood is they have a pretty grim outlook on the nature of that fight that they were in. As you go up to the brigades and the divisions and the corps⁹ and the armies, they may have a different view. My sense is that Ukraine has massed a good amount of combat power. How they use that will be the determining factor. Ukraine has fought extraordinarily¹⁰ well. Now, they've fought in the defense¹¹, and that's an important distinction. They're now fighting in the offense¹². Offensive combat, offensive maneuver¹³ is more complicated than the defense. And they're making a very deliberate level of progress.

INSKEEP: Let me ask about that difference...

MILLEY: Yeah.

INSKEEP: ...Because this war is the first one in decades that tests one relatively¹⁴ modern, well-equipped army against another relatively modern, well-equipped army. Is this war showing that in that situation, given the current weapons that are available, whoever is on the defensive¹⁵ is going to have the advantage, will be able to stop an offensive?

MILLEY: Well, historically, the defense has always been the stronger form of war - what you saw in the beginning of the war, beginning in 24 February, when the Russians attempted to conduct offensive operations with combined arms maneuver, and they were unsuccessful. They were not able to integrate their fighters and maneuver. They weren't able to achieve air superiority and a wide variety of other factors. Now the Ukrainians are on the offensive, and like I said, it remains¹⁶ to be seen what's going to happen, you know, in the next few weeks as - in terms of their ability to execute offensive combined arms maneuver. It's a very, very difficult task that the Ukrainians are undertaking¹⁷.

INSKEEP: So far as you can tell, have economic sanctions yet had any meaningful effect on Russia's ability to sustain their side of the war?

MILLEY: Well, we said at the beginning - and this is going back, you know, six, seven months - as I recall, I believe that the leaders of Western Europe and the United States, those that - in the State Department and Department of Commerce and Treasury¹⁸, etc., the ones that do things like sanctions - they said it would take a long time for those to take effect. And I'm doing this from memory, but I think they said something like six to nine months. So we're really at about the point in time when in the next few months, we should start seeing significant impacts of these sanctions as it relates to their military.

So as you know, there's two things. One is sanctions, and the other is export controls. Export controls could take up to almost a year to show significant effects on their military. And export controls involve things like semiconductors¹⁹. So if the Russians can't get semiconductors, then their ability to produce precision munitions²⁰ will be greatly diminished, which will have significant effect. And right now, for example, the Russian expenditure²¹ rates of conventional munitions - artillery - have been very high, and that's why you saw recent reports of the Russians going to North Korea to purchase munitions from North Korea.

INSKEEP: They're basically buying old Soviet²² things that they sold to the North Koreans long, long ago, right? They're repurchasing things.

MILLEY: That's exactly right. And they're having to buy it off of North Korea 'cause their industrial base is not producing them. So we'll see.

INSKEEP: Is the goal here simply not to lose until Russia runs out of steam?

MILLEY: With respect to Ukraine, the end state has been defined very clearly, which is a free and independent sovereign Ukraine at the end of the day. Now, what that means, what that looks like, exactly what the border looks like, and so on and so forth²³ - those are for others to decide, not me. But the intent there is that Ukraine remains free, sovereign and independent and free of Russian occupation. So we'll see. The United States is in this for as long as it takes to ensure that that end state is achieved.

INSKEEP: General Milley, it's always a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much.

MILLEY: OK, Steve, thanks.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST:

Our co-host Steve Inskeep, talking with the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Mark Milley. Milley traveled to Ramstein Air Base in Germany yesterday.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

1 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

2 joint   

adj.联合的，共同的；n.关节，接合处；v.连接，贴合

参考例句：

• I had a bad fall,which put my shoulder out of joint.我重重地摔了一跤，肩膀脫臼了。
• We wrote a letter in joint names.我们联名写了封信。

3 advisor   

n.顾问，指导老师，劝告者

参考例句：

• They employed me as an advisor.他们聘请我当顾问。
• The professor is engaged as a technical advisor.这位教授被聘请为技术顾问。

4 partially   

adv.部分地，从某些方面讲

参考例句：

• The door was partially concealed by the drapes.门有一部分被门帘遮住了。
• The police managed to restore calm and the curfew was partially lifted.警方设法恢复了平静，宵禁部分解除。

5 essentially   

adv.本质上，实质上，基本上

参考例句：

• Really great men are essentially modest.真正的伟人大都很谦虚。
• She is an essentially selfish person.她本质上是个自私自利的人。

6 layman   

n.俗人，门外汉，凡人

参考例句：

• These technical terms are difficult for the layman to understand.这些专门术语是外行人难以理解的。
• He is a layman in politics.他对政治是个门外汉。

7 artillery   

n.(军)火炮，大炮；炮兵(部队)

参考例句：

• This is a heavy artillery piece.这是一门重炮。
• The artillery has more firepower than the infantry.炮兵火力比步兵大。

8 assessment   

n.评价；评估；对财产的估价，被估定的金额

参考例句：

• This is a very perceptive assessment of the situation.这是一个对该情况的极富洞察力的评价。
• What is your assessment of the situation?你对时局的看法如何？

9 corps   

n.(通信等兵种的)部队；(同类作的)一组

参考例句：

• The medical corps were cited for bravery in combat.医疗队由于在战场上的英勇表现而受嘉奖。
• When the war broke out,he volunteered for the Marine Corps.战争爆发时，他自愿参加了海军陆战队。

10 extraordinarily   

adv.格外地；极端地

参考例句：

• She is an extraordinarily beautiful girl.她是个美丽非凡的姑娘。
• The sea was extraordinarily calm that morning.那天清晨，大海出奇地宁静。

11 defense   

n.防御，保卫；[pl.]防务工事；辩护，答辩

参考例句：

• The accused has the right to defense.被告人有权获得辩护。
• The war has impacted the area with military and defense workers.战争使那个地区挤满了军队和防御工程人员。

12 offense   

n.犯规，违法行为；冒犯，得罪

参考例句：

• I hope you will not take any offense at my words. 对我讲的话请别见怪。
• His words gave great offense to everybody present.他的发言冲犯了在场的所有人。

13 maneuver   

n.策略[pl.]演习；v.(巧妙)控制；用策略

参考例句：

• All the fighters landed safely on the airport after the military maneuver.在军事演习后，所有战斗机都安全降落在机场上。
• I did get her attention with this maneuver.我用这个策略确实引起了她的注意。

14 relatively   

adv.比较...地，相对地

参考例句：

• The rabbit is a relatively recent introduction in Australia.兔子是相对较新引入澳大利亚的物种。
• The operation was relatively painless.手术相对来说不痛。

15 defensive   

adj.防御的；防卫的；防守的

参考例句：

• Their questions about the money put her on the defensive.他们问到钱的问题，使她警觉起来。
• The Government hastily organized defensive measures against the raids.政府急忙布置了防卫措施抵御空袭。

16 remains   

n.剩余物，残留物；遗体，遗迹

参考例句：

• He ate the remains of food hungrily.他狼吞虎咽地吃剩余的食物。
• The remains of the meal were fed to the dog.残羹剩饭喂狗了。

17 undertaking   

n.保证，许诺，事业

参考例句：

• He gave her an undertaking that he would pay the money back with in a year.他向她做了一年内还钱的保证。
• He is too timid to venture upon an undertaking.他太胆小，不敢从事任何事业。

18 treasury   

n.宝库；国库，金库；文库

参考例句：

• The Treasury was opposed in principle to the proposals.财政部原则上反对这些提案。
• This book is a treasury of useful information.这本书是有价值的信息宝库。

19 semiconductors   

n.半导体( semiconductor的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• Crystals may be insulators, semiconductors, or conductors. 晶体可以是绝缘体，半导体，或导体。 来自辞典例句
• Semiconductors containing such impurities are called p-type semiconductors. 含有这类杂质的半导体叫做P型半导体。 来自辞典例句

20 munitions   

n.军火，弹药；v.供应…军需品

参考例句：

• The army used precision-guided munitions to blow up enemy targets.军队用精确瞄准的枪炮炸掉敌方目标。
• He rose [made a career for himself] by dealing in munitions.他是靠贩卖军火发迹的。

21 expenditure   

n.(时间、劳力、金钱等)支出；使用，消耗

参考例句：

• The entry of all expenditure is necessary.有必要把一切开支入账。
• The monthly expenditure of our family is four hundred dollars altogether.我们一家的开销每月共计四百元。

22 Soviet   

adj.苏联的，苏维埃的；n.苏维埃

参考例句：

• Zhukov was a marshal of the former Soviet Union.朱可夫是前苏联的一位元帅。
• Germany began to attack the Soviet Union in 1941.德国在1941年开始进攻苏联。

23 forth   

adv.向前；向外，往外

参考例句：

• The wind moved the trees gently back and forth.风吹得树轻轻地来回摇晃。
• He gave forth a series of works in rapid succession.他很快连续发表了一系列的作品。