Justice Department subpoenas former Vice President Pence in Jan. 6 Trump probe

 

Justice Department subpoenas² former Vice³ President Pence in Jan. 6 Trump⁴ probe

Transcript⁵

NPR's Asma Khalid talks to former federal prosecutor⁶ Renato Mariotti about what the decision to subpoena¹ former Vice President Mike Pence means for the probe into former President Donald Trump.

ASMA KHALID, HOST:

The special counsel investigating former President Donald Trump's role in the January 6 attacks subpoenaed⁷ former Vice President Mike Pence late last week. It is not yet clear if Pence will comply with the subpoena, but the move could prove to be a milestone⁸ in the Justice Department's ongoing⁹ investigations¹¹. Trump has previously¹² attempted to block testimony¹³ from his allies in regards to January 6, and he could try to legally challenge this Pence subpoena, too. For more, we are joined now by Renato Mariotti, former federal prosecutor. Welcome to the show, sir.

RENATO MARIOTTI: Happy to be here.

KHALID: So Trump's lawyers may try to fight off this subpoena on the grounds of executive privilege. Can you explain that to us? How could that work?

MARIOTTI: Sure. So executive privilege is essentially¹⁴ a doctrine¹⁵ that says that close advisers¹⁶ to the president and the president himself do have a certain amount of privilege that shields them from discovery from other branches of government. It's a little bit more difficult to assert executive privilege when the executive branch itself is conducting a criminal investigation¹⁰. And so courts have repeatedly held that where there's a need for a criminal investigation to obtain evidence that can't be obtained elsewhere, that that overrides¹⁷ executive privilege.

KHALID: And could Mike Pence, the former vice president, challenge the subpoena on similar grounds?

MARIOTTI: He could. I think he would have - he would also likely be unsuccessful.

KHALID: Got it. So the DOJ's January 6 investigation has been going on for quite some time now. Can you explain why the subpoena was issued now?

MARIOTTI: Well, it certainly suggests that - first of all, that Jack¹⁸ Smith, the special counsel, is pursuing this aspect of his investigation very vigorously. In other words, he is very taking the January 6 part of the investigation seriously. He views that as a viable¹⁹ avenue for potential charges, which is interesting because I think many have speculated that perhaps he'd be more focused on the Mar-a-Lago documents case. It also suggests that his investigation, at least as to this aspect, the decertification of the vote or the sending of electoral votes back to the states - that portion of the investigation is very far along because Mike Pence is the sort of witness you would talk to later in that investigation rather than early on.

KHALID: Got it. I actually want to ask you a follow up there. I mean, you're suggesting that that this is an indication, for example, that the January 6 investigation is quite far along, then, at this point, by issuing the subpoena of Mike Pence, because he was involved in some of that fake elector scheme - or not involved. But, you know, he's spoken very publicly about the president's attempt to overturn the election.

MARIOTTI: That's correct. And in fact, I mean, given that other aides were present during conversations, as all of us in the public heard, you know, testimony to Congress, those aides could have testified regarding a lot of the activity surrounding that. And so I would expect those aides would have all been interviewed first, which would have put Mike Pence later in the line of witnesses to be interviewed.

KHALID: You know, one of the things that I have been kind of puzzling over myself - I cover politics as my day job - is whether Mike Pence and Donald Trump have the same calculations in mind here. And I understand you cannot necessarily read into either one of their minds. But would the Department of Justice have issued the subpoena if it thought Mike Pence would not talk?

MARIOTTI: It's a great question. I think the latter part is the harder part to answer. In other words, I think in an ordinary circumstance you might. I mean, in other words, they might have issued the subpoena. You know, if they had not - even if they thought there was some - there might be some legal challenge, if they thought, for example, that in the end of the day, Mike Pence wouldn't take the Fifth.

Now, I will just say here, I don't think there would be a basis for Mike Pence to do so. I don't think he's done anything wrong. And I think the calculus²⁰ for Mike Pence and Donald Trump is very different. In other words, Donald Trump is, you know, a subject of this investigation. It's apparent that they're trying to build charges against him. Mike Pence is a witness or a victim, depending on the way you look at it. I mean, he was not involved, as you mentioned a moment ago. And so really, the calculus is entirely²¹ different for him. And, of course, I think that's what the Justice Department is counting on.

KHALID: How important do you think Mike Pence's testimony would be towards indicting²² the former president?

MARIOTTI: I think it would be pivotal. If Mike Pence, for example, said that, you know, he - you know, the president was trying to pressure him to do something that was plainly illegal, that he was, you know, trying to, you know, essentially ask Pence to set the law aside, I think that would be very different than testimony in which Pence said that he thought that Trump was just repeating legal theories given to him by his lawyers and didn't take it very seriously and didn't push that hard. In other words, those two versions of the same conversation are very different. And I do think that Pence ultimately could be a very important witness to the special counsel or could potentially undermine this case.

KHALID: We've got about a minute left, and I wanted to ask that in the event that the former vice president does testify, what specifically do you anticipate the special counsel is trying to seek out from him?

MARIOTTI: Great question. I mean, first of all, I think that primarily the special counsel is going to be focused on conversations between Mike Pence and Donald Trump in which no one else was present, because Mike Pence, of course, is the only person who could testify regarding these conversations. And I think he's also going to be interested in how Pence regarded the efforts by Trump to pressure him to set aside the electoral votes or send them back to the states. In other words, did he feel threatened? Did he feel pressured? And did it appear that this was not a legal strategy, but rather some sort of unlawful attempt to overturn the election?

KHALID: Renato Mariotti - that's former federal prosecutor Renato Mariotti. Thank you very much for taking the time.

MARIOTTI: Thank you.

1 subpoena   

n.（法律）传票；v.传讯

参考例句：

• He was brought up to court with a subpoena.他接到传讯，来到法庭上。
• Select committees have the power to subpoena witnesses.特别委员会有权传唤证人。

2 subpoenas   

n.（传唤出庭的）传票( subpoena的名词复数 )v.（用传票）传唤（某人）( subpoena的第三人称单数 )

参考例句：

• My company has complied with committee subpoenas by supplying documents confirming all that I have said. 本公司按照委员会的要求，提供了能够证实我刚才发言的文件。 来自辞典例句
• Congressional Investigations: Subpoenas and Contempt Power. Report for Congress April 2, 2003. 金灿荣：《美国国会的监督功能》，载《教学与研究》2003年第2期。 来自互联网

3 vice   

n.坏事；恶习；[pl.]台钳，老虎钳；adj.副的

参考例句：

• He guarded himself against vice.他避免染上坏习惯。
• They are sunk in the depth of vice.他们堕入了罪恶的深渊。

4 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

5 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

6 prosecutor   

n.起诉人；检察官，公诉人

参考例句：

• The defender argued down the prosecutor at the court.辩护人在法庭上驳倒了起诉人。
• The prosecutor would tear your testimony to pieces.检查官会把你的证言驳得体无完肤。

7 subpoenaed   

v.（用传票）传唤（某人）( subpoena的过去式和过去分词 )

参考例句：

• The court subpoenaed her to appear as a witness. 法庭传唤她出庭作证。
• The finance director is subpoenaed by prosecution. 财务经理被检查机关传讯。 来自《简明英汉词典》

8 milestone   

n.里程碑；划时代的事件

参考例句：

• The film proved to be a milestone in the history of cinema.事实证明这部影片是电影史上的一个里程碑。
• I think this is a very important milestone in the relations between our two countries.我认为这是我们两国关系中一个十分重要的里程碑。

9 ongoing   

adj.进行中的，前进的

参考例句：

• The problem is ongoing.这个问题尚未解决。
• The issues raised in the report relate directly to Age Concern's ongoing work in this area.报告中提出的问题与“关心老人”组织在这方面正在做的工作有直接的关系。

10 investigation   

n.调查，调查研究

参考例句：

• In an investigation,a new fact became known, which told against him.在调查中新发现了一件对他不利的事实。
• He drew the conclusion by building on his own investigation.他根据自己的调查研究作出结论。

11 investigations   

（正式的）调查( investigation的名词复数 )； 侦查； 科学研究； 学术研究

参考例句：

• His investigations were intensive and thorough but revealed nothing. 他进行了深入彻底的调查，但没有发现什么。
• He often sent them out to make investigations. 他常常派他们出去作调查。

12 previously   

adv.以前，先前（地）

参考例句：

• The bicycle tyre blew out at a previously damaged point.自行车胎在以前损坏过的地方又爆开了。
• Let me digress for a moment and explain what had happened previously.让我岔开一会儿，解释原先发生了什么。

13 testimony   

n.证词；见证，证明

参考例句：

• The testimony given by him is dubious.他所作的证据是可疑的。
• He was called in to bear testimony to what the police officer said.他被传入为警官所说的话作证。

14 essentially   

adv.本质上，实质上，基本上

参考例句：

• Really great men are essentially modest.真正的伟人大都很谦虚。
• She is an essentially selfish person.她本质上是个自私自利的人。

15 doctrine   

n.教义；主义；学说

参考例句：

• He was impelled to proclaim his doctrine.他不得不宣扬他的教义。
• The council met to consider changes to doctrine.宗教议会开会考虑更改教义。

16 advisers   

顾问，劝告者( adviser的名词复数 )； （指导大学新生学科问题等的）指导教授

参考例句：

• a member of the President's favoured circle of advisers 总统宠爱的顾问班子中的一员
• She withdrew to confer with her advisers before announcing a decision. 她先去请教顾问然后再宣布决定。

17 overrides   

越控( override的第三人称单数 )； （以权力）否决； 优先于； 比…更重要

参考例句：

• The new rule overrides all the previous ones. 新规则使以前的所有规则失效。
• The application configuration file setting overrides the machine configuration file setting. 应用程序配置文件设置重写计算机配置文件设置。

18 jack   

n.插座，千斤顶，男人；v.抬起，提醒，扛举；n.（Jake）杰克

参考例句：

• I am looking for the headphone jack.我正在找寻头戴式耳机插孔。
• He lifted the car with a jack to change the flat tyre.他用千斤顶把车顶起来换下瘪轮胎。

19 viable   

adj.可行的，切实可行的，能活下去的

参考例句：

• The scheme is economically viable.这个计划从经济效益来看是可行的。
• The economy of the country is not viable.这个国家经济是难以维持的。

20 calculus   

n.微积分；结石

参考例句：

• This is a problem where calculus won't help at all.对于这一题，微积分一点也用不上。
• After studying differential calculus you will be able to solve these mathematical problems.学了微积分之后，你们就能够解这些数学题了。

21 entirely   

ad.全部地，完整地；完全地，彻底地

参考例句：

• The fire was entirely caused by their neglect of duty. 那场火灾完全是由于他们失职而引起的。
• His life was entirely given up to the educational work. 他的一生统统献给了教育工作。

22 indicting   

控告，起诉( indict的现在分词 )

参考例句：

• But Moreno-Ocampo stressed he was not indicting President Bashir. 但是奥坎波强调，他并不是在起诉巴希尔总统。
• He says that indicting the journalists is just another move at Washington. 尹德民说，起诉这两名记者就是针对华盛顿的另一个行动。