美国国家公共电台 NPR--How war has changed Russian society

How war has changed Russian society

Transcript¹

NPR's Steve Inskeep talks to Nina Khrushcheva, the great-granddaughter of Nikita Khrushchev, about her visit to Russia and how life has changed during its war on Ukraine.

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

Nina Khrushcheva joins us next. She is back in the United States after spending several months in Russia researching a book on her great grandfather, the Soviet² premier³, Nikita Khrushchev. Good morning.

NINA KHRUSHCHEVA: Good morning.

INSKEEP: So I'm thinking about the way that when there's been bad news, a death in the family, layoffs⁴ in the company, sometimes people talk all about it, and sometimes people don't want to talk about it at all, like there's nothing to say. So when you were in Moscow and St. Petersburg, how, if at all, did people talk about the war?

KHRUSHCHEVA: Well, that's the only thing they talk about, actually, even if on the surface sometimes it seems that nothing has happened. But the only thing they talk about is that. I mean, it's almost like a society in a suspended state. Your correspondent just said that Putin has cast it as an existential battle between Russia and the West. And - but since there is no exit, really, there's no understanding how that existential battle is going to be resolved and what's next. It is kind of a very terrifying moment for most Russians. They just - despair there is palpable.

INSKEEP: Do people accept Putin's frame for this war then, we must win or we die?

KHRUSHCHEVA: To some degree, they now have to. I mean, if we talk about a year, the rhetoric⁵ changed. I mean, it used to be much less existential and more about saving the brothers, the Russian brothers or Russian-affiliated brothers in Donbas, in East Ukraine. But now it is this sort of the Lord Voldemort fight for the Ministry⁶ of Magic against everybody else for eternal glory. It's pretty much like that. And so people do have to accept it because where else they're going to go? But I would calculate - and you cannot really trust any Russian polling because when you're going to be arrested for saying no, that you're not supporting Putin, then of course you're going to say, yes, you are. But if you recast it and rethink how these questions are asked and what people really mean, I would say that about 70%, those 70% who say they support Putin actually want out of it, although they don't see how Russia can get out of it. Because if we are indeed threatened by the West, what else we're going to do?

INSKEEP: So privately⁷, they would like Putin to go, but publicly, they are effectively supporting him because they see no alternative.

KHRUSHCHEVA: Well, publicly, some people say they're effectively supporting him because they really have no alternative. But, yes, I mean, Russia really just - many in Russia think that they're going to wake up from this bad dream. And I'm really saying it cautiously because if it is a bad dream for Russia, for Ukraine, it's a nightmare. But, yes, Russians also feel that it's a nightmare to live through.

INSKEEP: We have, of course, followed the news of the flow of people out of Russia over the past year. I'd like to know how that feels in the places that people are leaving behind. Have enough people vanished that you feel their absence in a place like Moscow?

KHRUSHCHEVA: Absolutely. I mean, all people - most people I know, I knew were gone. And, I mean, people are meeting elsewhere now. People just asking, where are you? Are you in Riga? Are you in Vilnius? Are you in Berlin? Are you in London? Let's get together. So a lot of people are gone. I mean, some still there, but a lot of people are gone. And when Putin says - and there's a quote we just heard that the Russian society is behind it, Russia essentially⁸, I mean, once again, this is a very soft figure, as we don't know, but probably about a million and a half left Russia since the beginning of the operation. So this is technically⁹ the country that pretends that it's just a special military operation, not the war. So lost 1% of its population just because people left. But also, let's remember that in many, many places in Russia, there are dead bodies coming back and people are aware of that. And they have these burials, and they are told not to talk about it. So this is something that, as I said, society in a suspended state.

INSKEEP: What kinds of things do you hear from people about America when you meet them and you say, I'm coming from the United States, I live in the United States, I'm heading back to the United States?

KHRUSHCHEVA: Well, people say I'm lucky because, I mean, you know, a lot of people want to go. They ask me, oh, is - Biden really think that he's going to win over such a great country, such as big 11 time zone country such as Russia? But generally, it's more - people see it as a political fight, really not a fight against, you know, Russian people against American people in any way. But that reminded me of the Cold War animosity. And that's the thing that Putin did is that sides suddenly became the battle between the two systems or that Russia doesn't have a system, separate system, and yet he managed to do it.

INSKEEP: Nina Khrushcheva, thanks so much for your insights, really appreciate it.

KHRUSHCHEVA: Thank you.

1 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

2 Soviet   

adj.苏联的，苏维埃的；n.苏维埃

参考例句：

• Zhukov was a marshal of the former Soviet Union.朱可夫是前苏联的一位元帅。
• Germany began to attack the Soviet Union in 1941.德国在1941年开始进攻苏联。

3 premier   

adj.首要的；n.总理，首相

参考例句：

• The Irish Premier is paying an official visit to Britain.爱尔兰总理正在对英国进行正式访问。
• He requested that the premier grant him an internview.他要求那位总理接见他一次。

4 layoffs   

临时解雇( layoff的名词复数 )； 停工，停止活动

参考例句：

• Textile companies announced 2000 fresh layoffs last week. 各纺织公司上周宣布再次裁员两千人。
• Stock prices broke when the firm suddenly announced layoffs. 当公司突然宣布裁员时，股票价格便大跌

5 rhetoric   

n.修辞学，浮夸之言语

参考例句：

• Do you know something about rhetoric?你懂点修辞学吗？
• Behind all the rhetoric,his relations with the army are dangerously poised.在冠冕堂皇的言辞背后，他和军队的关系岌岌可危。

6 ministry   

n.(政府的)部；牧师

参考例句：

• They sent a deputation to the ministry to complain.他们派了一个代表团到部里投诉。
• We probed the Air Ministry statements.我们调查了空军部的记录。

7 privately   

adv.以私人的身份，悄悄地，私下地

参考例句：

• Some ministers admit privately that unemployment could continue to rise.一些部长私下承认失业率可能继续升高。
• The man privately admits that his motive is profits.那人私下承认他的动机是为了牟利。

8 essentially   

adv.本质上，实质上，基本上

参考例句：

• Really great men are essentially modest.真正的伟人大都很谦虚。
• She is an essentially selfish person.她本质上是个自私自利的人。

9 technically   

adv.专门地，技术上地

参考例句：

• Technically it is the most advanced equipment ever.从技术上说，这是最先进的设备。
• The tomato is technically a fruit,although it is eaten as a vegetable.严格地说，西红柿是一种水果，尽管它是当作蔬菜吃的。