美国国家公共电台 NPR--20 years after the Iraq invasion, John Bolton says he'd do it all over again

20 years after the Iraq invasion, John Bolton says he'd do it all over again

Transcript¹

NPR's Steve Inskeep speaks to former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton, who defends the U.S. decision to invade Iraq. In 2003, Bolton was the U.S. undersecretary of state.

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

At the end of this week of remembering the war in Iraq, we hear John Bolton, who defends the decision to start it. The United States invaded 20 years ago. U.S. troops never found the weapons of mass destruction used to justify² the war and instead triggered an insurgency³. This week, we've heard American veterans, Iraqi civilians⁴ and a man the U.S. once imprisoned⁵. We've also heard a former top U.S. military officer who says the war was a mistake. In 2003, John Bolton was a senior diplomat⁶ in President George W. Bush's administration. He has written in the National Review that the decision to invade was right, even if later decisions were wrong.

What's the distinction in your mind?

JOHN BOLTON: Well, I think it's a mistake to treat a 20-plus year period as a block of granite⁷. You accept one piece of it, you accept all of it. I don't think that's right. So I think you have to look at a series of decisions - some of which were right in my view, some of which were wrong - and judge each of them on their own. And you have to do it on the basis of how decision makers⁸ face these questions when they're confronted with them. Hindsight, as the saying goes, is always 20/20.

INSKEEP: Wasn't it foreseeable that taking over a country of 27 million people are so probably would be very, very hard, very expensive, a very long process?

BOLTON: No, I don't think it was inevitable⁹ that that was going to happen in any event.

INSKEEP: Maybe not inevitable, but wasn't it foreseeable that that would be a very likely outcome?

BOLTON: It was a potential outcome. That's right. And I think there were decisions made after the invasion that were mistaken, but some things occurred that nobody foresaw, particularly the utter collapse¹⁰ of the Iraqi government.

INSKEEP: Bolton says it's important to recall the times after the 9/11 attacks when the United States didn't know what threats might lurk¹¹. At that time, some officials did fear the U.S. was setting unrealistic goals for reordering the world. We played one such voice for John Bolton - Republican Congressman¹² Jim Leach¹³, who spoke¹⁴ with me on NPR back in January of 2003.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

JIM LEACH: I've never known a time period where something called hubris¹⁵ is less appropriate. This is a time period to think and act with the greatest degree of caution.

INSKEEP: Ambassador, with the greatest respect, was there perhaps some hubris in the idea that the United States could get in quickly to that country and get out again?

BOLTON: Well, I don't know whether there was or not since we did get in quickly. The period of major combat operations lasted from March the 20 to May the 1.

INSKEEP: Sure.

BOLTON: And the military's performance was superb. And I don't know...

INSKEEP: But maybe the hubris was on the other side.

BOLTON: Let me - can I just finish, please?

INSKEEP: Please. Go ahead.

BOLTON: I don't know anybody who criticizes that. Now, in terms of, let's say, hubris versus¹⁶ prudence¹⁷, the United States had been attacked on 9/11 to devastating¹⁸ effect. Terrorist groups were still around in the Middle East and worldwide. What's the most prudent¹⁹ thing to do? My view is, was then and is today, the most prudent thing to do, from the point of view of innocent civilians of the United States, is remove the threat.

INSKEEP: You write that no one lied about WMD, weapons of mass destruction. When I read that, I immediately recalled the 16 famous words from a speech by President Bush.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

GEORGE W BUSH: The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.

INSKEEP: Every part of that statement turned out to be false. And it seems the writers of that speech knew that it was doubtful at best because they didn't source it to U.S. intelligence. They sourced it from something they'd supposedly heard from the British. Wasn't that awfully²⁰ close to a lie?

BOLTON: Well, it depends on how you define a lie, because if you believe that's a lie, then a lot of what I hear on NPR on any given day is a lie. To me, a lie is a statement that's untrue, that's uttered deliberately²¹ knowing it's false. The administration didn't lie.

INSKEEP: I want to mention if you think you hear a lie on NPR, let me know - or even a false statement. We try to correct them when they come up.

BOLTON: I don't have the time to do that.

INSKEEP: We also asked Ambassador Bolton about going to war without the specific approval of the United Nations. Our talk was complicated. So here's some background. Before invading Iraq in 2003, the United States wanted the world's leading powers at the United Nations Security Council to approve. Speaking on this program back in 2003, national security adviser²² Condoleezza Rice made the case for confronting Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

CONDOLEEZZA RICE: And what we're saying to the council is, don't let him play that game. Give him a very clear message that he needs to disarm²³; he needs to disarm now; and perhaps, just perhaps, we'll still have a chance to do this peacefully.

INSKEEP: Russia, China and a U.S. ally, France, all declined to go along.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

COLIN POWELL: Clearly, this is a test, in my judgment²⁴, that the Security Council did not meet.

INSKEEP: Which disappointed Secretary of State Colin Powell, speaking there also in 2003. President Bush ordered the invasion anyway, which the United States said was legal under earlier resolutions on Iraq. The U.N. had passed them back in the 1990s, before and after a previous war. John Bolton contends they were enough for Bush to act in 2003. Here's how some of our discussion went.

BOLTON: Do you believe that he did not have Security Council authorization²⁵?

INSKEEP: You're telling me that he did. What was the legal basis...

BOLTON: Why don't you just answer the question? I have to answer your questions. Why don't you - it's a simple question. Yes or no - do you think he had authority?

INSKEEP: I don't think the Security Council voted to specifically authorize²⁶ this invasion. I think you'll maybe tell me that there were earlier resolutions from the 1990s that did give authorization.

BOLTON: Oh, my goodness, there's that legal argument again that lawyers throw up. Well, it's a very important argument. George Bush had full authorization by prior Security Council resolutions to do exactly what he did. And any implication to the contrary is simply wrong.

INSKEEP: You're saying that he had authorization not only to say that Iraq was in violation²⁷, but to decide on his own, or with one or two other nations, a few other nations, that there should be an invasion without further permission.

BOLTON: Resolution 678 clearly indicated that countries cooperating with Kuwait to reestablish peace and security in the region were authorized²⁸ to use all necessary means to do it. That's exactly right.

INSKEEP: John Bolton is right that there were old resolutions on Iraq. One did authorize the use of any means necessary if Iraq was making weapons of mass destruction, which, as U.N. inspectors³⁰ were finding, Iraq was not. Long afterward³¹, former U.N. weapons inspector²⁹ Hans Blix rejected the idea that the old resolution was enough.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

HANS BLIX: And to say then that, yes, the action upheld the authority of a council that they knew was against it, I think, strikes me as going against common sense.

INSKEEP: Yet John Bolton contends 20 years later that the war was not only legal but worth it.

BOLTON: Knowing everything I know now, I would do exactly the same thing.

INSKEEP: Ambassador John Bolton. It's a pleasure, always, talking with you. Thank you so much.

BOLTON: Thank you.

1 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

2 justify   

vt.证明…正当(或有理)，为…辩护

参考例句：

• He tried to justify his absence with lame excuses.他想用站不住脚的借口为自己的缺席辩解。
• Can you justify your rude behavior to me?你能向我证明你的粗野行为是有道理的吗？

3 insurgency   

n.起义；暴动；叛变

参考例句：

• And as in China, unrest and even insurgency are widespread. 而在中国，动乱甚至暴乱都普遍存在。 来自互联网
• Dr Zyphur is part an insurgency against this idea. 塞弗博士是这一观点逆流的一部分。 来自互联网

4 civilians   

平民，百姓( civilian的名词复数 )； 老百姓

参考例句：

• the bloody massacre of innocent civilians 对无辜平民的血腥屠杀
• At least 300 civilians are unaccounted for after the bombing raids. 遭轰炸袭击之后，至少有300名平民下落不明。

5 imprisoned   

下狱，监禁( imprison的过去式和过去分词 )

参考例句：

• He was imprisoned for two concurrent terms of 30 months and 18 months. 他被判处30个月和18个月的监禁，合并执行。
• They were imprisoned for possession of drugs. 他们因拥有毒品而被监禁。

6 diplomat   

n.外交官，外交家；能交际的人，圆滑的人

参考例句：

• The diplomat threw in a joke, and the tension was instantly relieved.那位外交官插进一个笑话，紧张的气氛顿时缓和下来。
• He served as a diplomat in Russia before the war.战前他在俄罗斯当外交官。

7 granite   

adj.花岗岩，花岗石

参考例句：

• They squared a block of granite.他们把一块花岗岩加工成四方形。
• The granite overlies the older rocks.花岗岩躺在磨损的岩石上面。

8 makers   

n.制造者，制造商（maker的复数形式）

参考例句：

• The makers of the product assured us that there had been no sacrifice of quality. 这一产品的制造商向我们保证说他们没有牺牲质量。
• The makers are about to launch out a new product. 制造商们马上要生产一种新产品。 来自《简明英汉词典》

9 inevitable   

adj.不可避免的，必然发生的

参考例句：

• Mary was wearing her inevitable large hat.玛丽戴着她总是戴的那顶大帽子。
• The defeat had inevitable consequences for British policy.战败对英国政策不可避免地产生了影响。

10 collapse   

vi.累倒；昏倒；倒塌；塌陷

参考例句：

• The country's economy is on the verge of collapse.国家的经济已到了崩溃的边缘。
• The engineer made a complete diagnosis of the bridge's collapse.工程师对桥的倒塌做了一次彻底的调查分析。

11 lurk   

n.潜伏，潜行；v.潜藏，潜伏，埋伏

参考例句：

• Dangers lurk in the path of wilderness.在这条荒野的小路上隐伏着危险。
• He thought he saw someone lurking above the chamber during the address.他觉得自己看见有人在演讲时潜藏在会议厅顶上。

12 Congressman   

n.（美）国会议员

参考例句：

• He related several anecdotes about his first years as a congressman.他讲述自己初任议员那几年的几则轶事。
• The congressman is meditating a reply to his critics.这位国会议员正在考虑给他的批评者一个答复。

13 leach   

v.分离，过滤掉；n.过滤；过滤器

参考例句：

• Liquid water can leach soluble materials from the interface.液态水能够从界面溶解出可溶性物质。
• They believe that the humic materials are leached from decaying plant materials.他们认为腐植物料是从腐烂的植物体浸沥而来。

14 spoke   

n.（车轮的）辐条；轮辐；破坏某人的计划；阻挠某人的行动 v.讲，谈（speak的过去式）；说；演说；从某种观点来说

参考例句：

• They sourced the spoke nuts from our company.他们的轮辐螺帽是从我们公司获得的。
• The spokes of a wheel are the bars that connect the outer ring to the centre.辐条是轮子上连接外圈与中心的条棒。

15 hubris   

n.傲慢，骄傲

参考例句：

• There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris.在技术方面自以为是会很危险。
• The very hubris of French claims alarmed the other powers.法国贪婪的胃口使其他大国惊恐不安。

16 versus   

prep.以…为对手，对；与…相比之下

参考例句：

• The big match tonight is England versus Spain.今晚的大赛是英格兰对西班牙。
• The most exciting game was Harvard versus Yale.最富紧张刺激的球赛是哈佛队对耶鲁队。

17 prudence   

n.谨慎，精明，节俭

参考例句：

• A lack of prudence may lead to financial problems.不够谨慎可能会导致财政上出现问题。
• The happy impute all their success to prudence or merit.幸运者都把他们的成功归因于谨慎或功德。

18 devastating   

adj.毁灭性的，令人震惊的，强有力的

参考例句：

• It is the most devastating storm in 20 years.这是20年来破坏性最大的风暴。
• Affairs do have a devastating effect on marriages.婚外情确实会对婚姻造成毁灭性的影响。

19 prudent   

adj.谨慎的，有远见的，精打细算的

参考例句：

• A prudent traveller never disparages his own country.聪明的旅行者从不贬低自己的国家。
• You must school yourself to be modest and prudent.你要学会谦虚谨慎。

20 awfully   

adv.可怕地，非常地，极端地

参考例句：

• Agriculture was awfully neglected in the past.过去农业遭到严重忽视。
• I've been feeling awfully bad about it.对这我一直感到很难受。

21 deliberately   

adv.审慎地；蓄意地；故意地

参考例句：

• The girl gave the show away deliberately.女孩故意泄露秘密。
• They deliberately shifted off the argument.他们故意回避这个论点。

22 adviser   

n.劝告者，顾问

参考例句：

• They employed me as an adviser.他们聘请我当顾问。
• Our department has engaged a foreign teacher as phonetic adviser.我们系已经聘请了一位外籍老师作为语音顾问。

23 disarm   

v.解除武装，回复平常的编制，缓和

参考例句：

• The world has waited 12 years for Iraq to disarm. 全世界等待伊拉克解除武装已有12年之久。
• He has rejected every peaceful opportunity offered to him to disarm.他已经拒绝了所有能和平缴械的机会。

24 judgment   

n.审判；判断力，识别力，看法，意见

参考例句：

• The chairman flatters himself on his judgment of people.主席自认为他审视人比别人高明。
• He's a man of excellent judgment.他眼力过人。

25 authorization   

n.授权，委任状

参考例句：

• Anglers are required to obtain prior authorization from the park keeper.垂钓者必须事先得到公园管理者的许可。
• You cannot take a day off without authorization.未经批准你不得休假。

26 authorize   

v.授权，委任；批准，认可

参考例句：

• He said that he needed to get his supervisor to authorize my refund.他说必须让主管人员批准我的退款。
• Only the President could authorize the use of the atomic bomb.只有总统才能授权使用原子弹。

27 violation   

n.违反(行为)，违背(行为)，侵犯

参考例句：

• He roared that was a violation of the rules.他大声说，那是违反规则的。
• He was fined 200 dollars for violation of traffic regulation.他因违反交通规则被罚款200美元。

28 authorized   

a.委任的，许可的

参考例句：

• An administrative order is valid if authorized by a statute.如果一个行政命令得到一个法规的认可那么这个命令就是有效的。

29 inspector   

n.检查员，监察员，视察员

参考例句：

• The inspector was interested in everything pertaining to the school.视察员对有关学校的一切都感兴趣。
• The inspector was shining a flashlight onto the tickets.查票员打着手电筒查看车票。

30 inspectors   

n.检查员( inspector的名词复数 )；（英国公共汽车或火车上的）查票员；（警察）巡官；检阅官

参考例句：

• They got into the school in the guise of inspectors. 他们假装成视察员进了学校。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• Inspectors checked that there was adequate ventilation. 检查员已检查过，通风良好。 来自《简明英汉词典》

31 afterward   

adv.后来；以后

参考例句：

• Let's go to the theatre first and eat afterward. 让我们先去看戏，然后吃饭。
• Afterward,the boy became a very famous artist.后来，这男孩成为一个很有名的艺术家。