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(单词翻译:双击或拖选)
Justice Department laid out the case against Trump1 in a 40-page indictment2
NPR's Leila Fadel speaks with Ankush Khardori, a former federal prosecutor4 and a contributing writer for Politico, about the strength of the DOJ's case against former President Donald Trump.
LEILA FADEL, HOST:
Let's bring in Ankush Khardori. He's a former federal prosecutor in the Justice Department and a contributing writer for Politico.
Ankush, thanks for joining us.
ANKUSH KHARDORI: Thanks for having me.
FADEL: So how strong is this case against Trump?
KHARDORI: Well, I think it's important to remember that an indictment is just a set of allegations, and the government has to establish these allegations at trial. But within the four corners of this indictment, I think what we see is a very exhaustive investigation5 - one that's gathered a variety of different types of evidence and fairly potent6 types of evidence, including audio recordings8, material from Trump's own lawyer, the photos from Mar-a-Lago, to say nothing of the documents themselves. And, you know, I think that this indictment, just on its face, is a very impressive document - one that I think many Americans, if they can find the time, should try to read because it is, I think, a document that is intended for consumption by the American public.
FADEL: Now, you and I have read this indictment. It's more than 40 pages. What stood out to you when you were looking through it?
KHARDORI: The crystal-clear nature of the narrative9. These documents are very hard to draft in a way that are sort of intelligible10. And I thought that the prosecutors11 did a very good job of laying out the narrative in a way that made clear the intentionality of Trump's alleged12 misconduct and the scope of the alleged obstruction13 and then again, too, the sort of variety of types of evidence including material that'll be very hard for Trump to run away from if it's admitted at trial, including, for instance, the audio recording7 of him showing a document to someone in his office and the material from his own lawyer, Evan Corcoran.
FADEL: Now, if he were to be found guilty of these charges, what kind of sentence might he receive?
KHARDORI: That is a very, very open question, right? So the most serious charge carries a 20-year statutory maximum. Now, that's not a very helpful way of thinking about these things. I think, you know, comparable cases involving other government officials that have gone to trial and resulted in guilty verdicts have ended up with real terms of imprisonment14 in the, you know, single- or mid-single-digit years of imprisonment. But, of course, Trump is a unique defendant15.
FADEL: Right.
KHARDORI: He's a first-time offender16. He was a former president. There are very complex legal and factual issues that I expect to be aired out during the course of this trial. And ultimately, the sentence that a judge issues is very much up to their very wide discretion17.
FADEL: As you point out, this is pretty historic, unprecedented18 - former president, running for president. What happens if he's convicted and then reelected? Does he go to prison or the Oval Office?
KHARDORI: I think that the odds19 that Trump is imprisoned20 as long as he's a active presidential candidate are very, very low. The reason is, on the front end of this, there's going to be quite a path between here, where we are now, to a potential trial. It's going to be very hard to even schedule a trial when you factor in the political calendar next year and concerns about interfering21 with the political process.
But even if a trial and a conviction resulted during the campaign season, here, too, the judge has a lot of discretion to allow post-trial briefing. Months can go by before sentencing is even completed, and then she can leave, or - it's currently a she, the judge presiding - she can allow Trump to remain out on bail22 even while his case is pending23 on appeal. So there's no mandatory24 term of imprisonment on any of the charges, and she would be under no obligation to send him immediately to prison upon a conviction.
FADEL: So is that why - I mean, you've written in Politico that Trump's own reelection effort might be his best defense25. Is that why?
KHARDORI: Yeah. It is. I mean, this is a complex case - serious charges, of course. And in the ordinary circumstance, you would expect a very, very convoluted26 litigation to occur here, both pre- and post-trial. But for Trump, his easiest way out of this is to get reelected, pardon himself or direct his attorney general to shut down the case, and call it a day.
FADEL: How does this case compare to Trump's indictment in New York in the scheme to arrange hush-money payments for the adult film actress Stormy Daniels?
KHARDORI: Well, it's clearly more serious, right? I think those of us who are sort of close watchers of the New York courts, I think, assume that even if Trump were convicted in that case, it's very, very unlikely that he would actually be sentenced to any term of imprisonment.
But in addition, you know, I think that this federal indictment is much more accessible to lawyers and to the public. We understand the conduct. We understand why it would be criminalized. The way that the government has used the statutes27 is not - they haven't been deployed28 in an unusual or novel way. And kind of all of those things surround the Manhattan case and has, I think, contributed to the somewhat ambivalent29 public reception around that document. This one is quite different to me.
FADEL: You know, one of the things we're hearing from Trump and others who are defending him is that, well, what about Hillary's emails, and what about the classified documents that Biden had? Does this indictment - does this case compare at all? Is there a comparison to be made? Is that fair?
KHARDORI: I really - yeah, I really - I don't think so at all. I mean, the scope of what was taken, the intentionality - alleged intentionality - behind it, and there is nothing comparable in either of those other fact patterns to the alleged obstruction on the part of Trump and his integral involvement in that alleged obstruction. So I don't have much patience for the comparisons, to be honest. I think they're just politically motivated talking points.
FADEL: Ankush Khardori is a former federal prosecutor and a contributing writer for Politico.
Thanks for your time.
KHARDORI: Thank you for having me.
1 trump | |
n.王牌,法宝;v.打出王牌,吹喇叭 | |
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2 indictment | |
n.起诉;诉状 | |
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3 transcript | |
n.抄本,誊本,副本,肄业证书 | |
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4 prosecutor | |
n.起诉人;检察官,公诉人 | |
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5 investigation | |
n.调查,调查研究 | |
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6 potent | |
adj.强有力的,有权势的;有效力的 | |
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7 recording | |
n.录音,记录 | |
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8 recordings | |
n.记录( recording的名词复数 );录音;录像;唱片 | |
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9 narrative | |
n.叙述,故事;adj.叙事的,故事体的 | |
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10 intelligible | |
adj.可理解的,明白易懂的,清楚的 | |
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11 prosecutors | |
检举人( prosecutor的名词复数 ); 告发人; 起诉人; 公诉人 | |
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12 alleged | |
a.被指控的,嫌疑的 | |
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13 obstruction | |
n.阻塞,堵塞;障碍物 | |
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14 imprisonment | |
n.关押,监禁,坐牢 | |
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15 defendant | |
n.被告;adj.处于被告地位的 | |
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16 offender | |
n.冒犯者,违反者,犯罪者 | |
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17 discretion | |
n.谨慎;随意处理 | |
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18 unprecedented | |
adj.无前例的,新奇的 | |
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19 odds | |
n.让步,机率,可能性,比率;胜败优劣之别 | |
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20 imprisoned | |
下狱,监禁( imprison的过去式和过去分词 ) | |
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21 interfering | |
adj. 妨碍的 动词interfere的现在分词 | |
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22 bail | |
v.舀(水),保释;n.保证金,保释,保释人 | |
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23 pending | |
prep.直到,等待…期间;adj.待定的;迫近的 | |
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24 mandatory | |
adj.命令的;强制的;义务的;n.受托者 | |
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25 defense | |
n.防御,保卫;[pl.]防务工事;辩护,答辩 | |
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26 convoluted | |
adj.旋绕的;复杂的 | |
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27 statutes | |
成文法( statute的名词复数 ); 法令; 法规; 章程 | |
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28 deployed | |
(尤指军事行动)使展开( deploy的过去式和过去分词 ); 施展; 部署; 有效地利用 | |
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29 ambivalent | |
adj.含糊不定的;(态度等)矛盾的 | |
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