美国国家公共电台 NPR Leaving The Past Behind — Or Trying To — In Rushdie's Latest

 

ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:

The author Salman Rushdie has set his books all over the world. His most famous novels, "Midnight's Children" and "The Satanic Verses," take place in India and the U.K., both countries where Rushdie has lived. His new book is mostly set in the city he now calls home, New York. It's called "The Golden House." And its themes are deeply American. One character says, your country is young. One thinks differently when one has millennia¹ behind one. You have not even 250 years. I asked Salman Rushdie whether that youthfulness shapes his view of the U.S.

SALMAN RUSHDIE: It's a very interesting thing - having been brought up in one very ancient country, India, and then having lived in a kind of reasonably old country, England - and then to come to a new country. And they all have their slightly different characteristics.

SHAPIRO: For people who spend their whole lives in the United States, I'm not sure that we feel how our youthfulness as a country affects us. Bringing an outside perspective, how would you describe the way that shapes what the United States is?

RUSHDIE: It's just the weight of history. You know, I mean, America clearly has some very heavy and even dark aspects to its history. But it's not like having a couple of thousand years or 3,000 years of history. The burden of history is greater. And so one of the things that happens in this book is that people from an old country - let's just say, you know, an Indian family - wealthy, Indian family - in a way, trying to shed the burden of their own history, comes to a country in which the subject of reinvention of the self is completely central.

Everybody does it. People come through Ellis Island and change their names. People move from the Midwest to the big city and try and be new people. And it seemed appropriate for people from an old country trying to get rid of the shadow of the past to come to somewhere where it's possible to be new.

SHAPIRO: Is it really possible, though? That's the question that the book seems to keep returning to.

RUSHDIE: Yeah.

SHAPIRO: Some characters believe it is. Others believe it's not. Ultimately, can you escape your past?

RUSHDIE: Well, I mean, I think in a novel, you can't. You know, I think...

(LAUGHTER)

RUSHDIE: I think in a novel, if a family arrives in Manhattan, obviously concealing² some very dark secret, you know...

SHAPIRO: (Laughter) The secret will come out.

RUSHDIE: It's pretty clear that the secret is going to blow up in their face at some point.

SHAPIRO: Yeah.

RUSHDIE: In real life, I think people do manage to leave the past behind and start again. You know, I think New York is full of those stories of families, whether Jewish families from Eastern Europe or, nowadays, immigrants from all over the world - you know, come here and make new lives and seem to do it quite successfully.

SHAPIRO: But at the same time, as one character in this book puts it, the trouble with trying to escape yourself is that you bring yourself along for the ride.

RUSHDIE: Yeah. I mean, that is, of course, the tragedy of the novel - that this family, you know, Nero Golden, the patriarch, which, of course - not his real name but the name that he takes - clearly has a lot of luggage. He's somebody who, as we begin to discover as the novel unfolds, has had quite a shady past. And in trying to escape that past along with his three adult sons, he is guilty, I guess, of a little bit of innocence⁴. You know, he really thinks that by coming to America, he can go beyond the reach of the - well, to put it bluntly, gangsters⁵ - who might be interested in harming him. But, sometimes, you underestimate the opposition⁶, you know? And I think he does.

SHAPIRO: The books that you write have always felt connected to myths and legends. And this story almost feels like a fairy tale. It's very archetypal. There is a sort of king in his castle with three sons. There's a kind of wicked stepmother figure. There's almost a curse on the family. Are these archetypes just part of the water that you swim in, or do you choose one to work with? Is this conscious, or is it automatic?

RUSHDIE: No, I think it's just the way the stuff comes out. I do have a lot of mythology⁷ in my head, both Indian and kind of Greek and Roman. And that tends to spill into the characters quite often. And in this case, obviously, these characters who renamed themselves after characters from ancient Greece and Rome are very aware of their own self myth-making. They're trying to create themselves as kind of heroic or even quasi-divine figures. But there's a gap between that self-aggrandizing naming and the reality of their lives.

SHAPIRO: When you take a step back and observe that the novel you've written does follow an archetype, do you think to yourself, oh, how lovely - I'm part of this ancient tradition? Or do you think, oh, well, damn, I'm telling the same story humans have been telling themselves for millennia?

RUSHDIE: Oh, we all tell each other the same stories all the time. The question is whether you tell the story in a new way.

SHAPIRO: This is actually the question that I've most wanted to ask you. Your narrator - this filmmaker - at one point asks, why even try to understand the human condition if humanity revealed itself as grotesque⁸, dark, not worth it? How do you answer that question for yourself as a writer?

RUSHDIE: Well, it's obviously a tough question because it carries with it a sense of despair. And I think at that moment, Rene looking at America is very disillusioned⁹ with his own country, very disillusioned with the choices it's making and with what's happening in it. And he asks himself, you know, what is it that I'm a part of? And is it worth being a part of? Is it worth writing about? But I think, clearly, he himself doesn't fully³ think that because he ends up making his movie, and he ends up, in a way, narrating¹⁰ this novel.

SHAPIRO: But does that mean that humanity is not grotesque, dark, and not worth it? Or does it just mean that it's worth writing about anyway?

RUSHDIE: Well, I think it means both things, actually - that even if it were grotesque, dark and not worth it, it would be worth writing about. But what I - a way, what the novel tries to present is a world that's not grotesque. I see a real, I think, credible¹¹ world, you know, a believable city in a believable time in which real characters, real human beings are having their lives. But then when you ascend¹² to the level of public life, you find grotesques¹³ and cartoons.

SHAPIRO: And so in writing, do you find that humanity is not dark, that humanity is, in fact, worth it?

RUSHDIE: Yeah. I...

SHAPIRO: Or do your write in spite of the darkness?

RUSHDIE: I think human beings are the most interesting thing I know about. They're inexhaustibly interesting. And I think one of the great beauties of the novel as a form is that it shows us that human nature is the great constant. Human nature is the same in all places, in all times, in all languages. And that makes it the great subject of any writer's life - just to try and explore this vast ocean of human beings.

There's a wonderful line near the end of Saul Bellow's novel "The Adventures of Augie Marsh¹⁴" in which he describes himself as a Columbus of the near at hand. You know, setting out to explore the terra incognita, he says, the unknown land that spreads out from every gaze. You know, and I think that's sort of what the writer is. He's looking - he's a Columbus of the near at hand. You know, we're exploring the world that is not across an ocean but that is outside our front door.

SHAPIRO: Salman Rushdie - the new novel is called "The Golden House." What a privilege to talk to you. Thank you very much.

RUSHDIE: Thank you very much.

(SOUNDBITE OF BOMBAY DUB ORCHESTRA'S "STRANGE CONSTELLATIONS")

1 millennia   

n.一千年，千禧年

参考例句：

• For two millennia, exogamy was a major transgression for Jews. 两千年来，异族通婚一直是犹太人的一大禁忌。
• In the course of millennia, the dinosaurs died out. 在几千年的时间里，恐龙逐渐死绝了。

2 concealing   

v.隐藏，隐瞒，遮住( conceal的现在分词 )

参考例句：

• Despite his outward display of friendliness, I sensed he was concealing something. 尽管他表现得友善，我还是感觉到他有所隐瞒。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• SHE WAS BREAKING THE COMPACT, AND CONCEALING IT FROM HIM. 她违反了他们之间的约定，还把他蒙在鼓里。 来自英汉文学 - 三万元遗产

3 fully   

adv.完全地，全部地，彻底地；充分地

参考例句：

• The doctor asked me to breathe in,then to breathe out fully.医生让我先吸气，然后全部呼出。
• They soon became fully integrated into the local community.他们很快就完全融入了当地人的圈子。

4 innocence   

n.无罪；天真；无害

参考例句：

• There was a touching air of innocence about the boy.这个男孩有一种令人感动的天真神情。
• The accused man proved his innocence of the crime.被告人经证实无罪。

5 gangsters   

匪徒，歹徒( gangster的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• The gangsters offered him a sum equivalent to a whole year's earnings. 歹徒提出要给他一笔相当于他一年收入的钱。
• One of the gangsters was caught by the police. 歹徒之一被警察逮捕。

6 opposition   

n.反对，敌对

参考例句：

• The party leader is facing opposition in his own backyard.该党领袖在自己的党內遇到了反对。
• The police tried to break down the prisoner's opposition.警察设法制住了那个囚犯的反抗。

7 mythology   

n.神话，神话学，神话集

参考例句：

• In Greek mythology,Zeus was the ruler of Gods and men.在希腊神话中，宙斯是众神和人类的统治者。
• He is the hero of Greek mythology.他是希腊民间传说中的英雄。

8 grotesque   

adj.怪诞的，丑陋的；n.怪诞的图案，怪人（物）

参考例句：

• His face has a grotesque appearance.他的面部表情十分怪。
• Her account of the incident was a grotesque distortion of the truth.她对这件事的陈述是荒诞地歪曲了事实。

9 disillusioned   

a.不再抱幻想的，大失所望的，幻想破灭的

参考例句：

• I soon became disillusioned with the job. 我不久便对这个工作不再抱幻想了。
• Many people who are disillusioned in reality assimilate life to a dream. 许多对现实失望的人把人生比作一场梦。

10 narrating   

v.故事( narrate的现在分词 )

参考例句：

• She entertained them by narrating her adventures in Africa. 她讲述她在非洲的历险来使他们开心。
• [Mike Narrating] Worm and I fall into our old rhythm like Clyde Frazier and Pearl Monroe. [迈克叙述] 虫子和我配合得象以前一样默契我们两好象是克莱德。弗瑞泽和佩尔。门罗。 来自电影对白

11 credible   

adj.可信任的，可靠的

参考例句：

• The news report is hardly credible.这则新闻报道令人难以置信。
• Is there a credible alternative to the nuclear deterrent?是否有可以取代核威慑力量的可靠办法？

12 ascend   

vi.渐渐上升，升高；vt.攀登，登上

参考例句：

• We watched the airplane ascend higher and higher.我们看着飞机逐渐升高。
• We ascend in the order of time and of development.我们按时间和发展顺序向上溯。

13 grotesques   

n.衣着、打扮、五官等古怪，不协调的样子( grotesque的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• Grass's novels are peopled with outlandish characters: grotesques, clowns, scarecrows, dwarfs. 格拉斯的小说里充斥着稀奇古怪的人物：丑陋的怪人、小丑、稻草人和侏儒。 来自柯林斯例句

14 marsh   

n.沼泽，湿地

参考例句：

• There are a lot of frogs in the marsh.沼泽里有许多青蛙。
• I made my way slowly out of the marsh.我缓慢地走出这片沼泽地。