美国国家公共电台 NPR Paul Knoepfler: What Are The Unintended Consequences Of Human Gene Editing?

 

GUY RAZ, HOST:

OK. So Juan Enriquez is saying that this is all superpromising and exciting, and we could actually eliminate disease. And we could create...

PAUL KNOEPFLER: Right.

RAZ: ...You know, future humans who are immune from these horrible afflictions that haunt us. And that all seems pretty awesome¹, right?

KNOEPFLER: Well, you know, I've kind of taken it upon myself to try to get out there in the public and talk about how this technology could go wrong.

RAZ: This is Paul Knoepfler.

KNOEPFLER: I'm a professor at UC Davis School of Medicine.

RAZ: Paul spends a lot of time researching new gene²-editing tools like CRISPR, which basically allows you to cut and paste genes³ together, and how that technology might have unintended consequences down the road.

KNOEPFLER: Genetics is this interwoven, complex universe unto itself where you touch in one area, but you touch on there and there can be reverberations. You can change other genes and you can have consequences you might not like. And so every time you make one change, you might end up with a host of sort of associated sort of satellite changes as well.

RAZ: Paul described what the future of gene editing could look like when he gave his talk on the TED⁵ stage.

(SOUNDBITE OF TED TALK)

KNOEPFLER: Let's pretend it's the year 2030 and you're a parent. You have your daughter, Marianne, next to you. And in 2030, she is what we call a natural because she has no genetic⁴ modifications⁶. And because you and your partner consciously made that decision, many in your social circle, they kind of look down on you. They think you're, like, a luddite or a technophobe. Marianne's best friend, Jenna, who lives right next door, is a very different story. She was born a genetically⁷-modified designer baby with numerous upgrades. The scientists that Jenna's parents hired to do this for several million dollars introduced CRISPR into a whole panel of human embryos⁹. And then they used genetic testing and they predicted that that little, tiny embryo⁸, Jenna's embryo, would be the best of the bunch. And now Jenna is an actual, real person. She's sitting on the carpet in your living room playing with your daughter, Marianne. And your families have known each other for years now, and it's become very clear to you that Jenna is extraordinary. She's incredibly intelligent. If you're honest with yourself, she's smarter than you. And she's 5 years old.

(LAUGHTER)

KNOEPFLER: She's beautiful, tall, athletic¹⁰. And the list goes on and on. And, in fact, there's a whole new generation of these GM kids like Jenna. And so far it looks like they're healthier than their parents' generation and your generation. They're immune to a host of health conditions including HIV-AIDS and genetic diseases. It all sounds so great, but you can't help but have this sort of unsettling feeling, a gut¹¹ feeling that there's something just not quite right about Jenna. You've had the same feeling about other GM kids that you've met. You were also reading in the newspaper earlier this week that a study of these children who were born as designer babies indicates they may have some issues like increased aggressiveness and narcissism¹², but more immediately on your mind is some news that you just got from Jenna's family. She's so smart, she's now going to be going to a special school, a different school than your daughter, Marianne. And this has kind of thrown your family into a disarray¹³. Marianne's been crying, and last night when you took her to bed to kiss her goodnight, she said, Daddy, will Jenna even be my friend anymore?

RAZ: This sounds totally freaky. I mean, you are saying that within 15 years, people could be designing their own babies, like - like, free of genetic diseases and - and even choosing traits. You know, which in some ways sounds pretty good, but - but as you point out, it could create enormous problems as well.

KNOEPFLER: Yeah. You know, it can seem very positive. It can seem like a goal we should go for.

RAZ: Yeah.

KNOEPFLER: You know, who - who can argue with someone being healthier and, you know, perhaps having certain traits that are broadly perceived as quote-unquote "better?" But along with those things that society might perceive as desirable traits, you know, perhaps they would be more aggressive or perhaps they might develop some kind of unexpected disease later in life, and so at those kinds of levels we can't always anticipate what the consequences will be. There's also a concern if you imagine that kind of future in 15, 20, 25 years. There could be these sort of genetic class distinctions, right? There will be people who could afford to genetically modify their children, and then there will be those of us who couldn't. And I think there could be substantial negative consequences from that in terms of social justice and instability in society. And so as much as that, you know, hypothetical genetically-modified, designer-baby Jenna of the future might seem like a wonderful thing to potentially pursue technologically¹⁴, for me it seems very risky¹⁵.

RAZ: Yeah. I mean, it could be great if we could eliminate diseases, like, you know, like, like Huntington's disease or cystic fibrosis which are just horrible diseases. But, you know, why - why would we stop there? I mean, you could imagine people would say, well, let's deal with Down syndrome¹⁶. Let's deal with cleft¹⁷ lips. Let's deal with all kinds of, you know, debilitating¹⁸ deformities or whatever.

KNOEPFLER: It's very tricky¹⁹ because again you can find yourself kind of slipping towards changing traits, too. Like, you might try to prevent a neurological disease that's horrible but at the same time you've - hey, you know, successfully prevented that. That's fantastic. What if you're sort of in this weird²⁰, unexpected outcome where that kid is super smart as well, way smarter than anybody else? And then, you know, what if someone else wants to try to repeat your experiment not to get rid of that neurological condition but to make smarter people? And one thing I've learned in science over the years is oftentimes these experiments we do, they don't turn out quite the way we think they're going to.

RAZ: In just a minute, Paul Knoepfler's ideas on how we should be regulating this new technology and what it can mean for the future if we don't. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

RAZ: It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. And on the show today, Future Consequences, how the things we decide to do today will shape everything about tomorrow. And when it comes to things like gene editing, biologist Paul Knoepfler thinks the best step forward might be to take a step back.

KNOEPFLER: And, in fact, I've been in favor of a moratorium²¹ on the use of CRISPR in reproduction, you know, in actual human reproduction. So just to be a hundred percent clear, I don't want to have any kind of negative impact on CRISPR research in the lab at all. And CRISPR used some things like gene therapy, which is not heritable. I'm totally in favor of that. But I do think we should say, you know, if we're going to be using CRISPR in human embryos with the goal of making permanent genetic changes that will be passed on to future generations, right now we should not go down that path. But even if we did all agree on a moratorium, you know, is that only going to be in one country? What happens in other countries? And - and it's very hard to prevent something from happening when you have a very exciting technology.

RAZ: Yeah.

KNOEPFLER: And it has such power.

(SOUNDBITE OF TED TALK)

KNOEPFLER: We know from Darwin, you know, if we go back two centuries, that evolution and genetics profoundly have impacted humanity, who we are today. And some think there's, like, a social Darwinism at work in our world and maybe even a eugenics as well. Imagine those trends, those forces with a booster rocket of this CRISPR technology that is so powerful and so ubiquitous. And, in fact, we can just go back one century, to the last century, to see the power that eugenics can have. So today I see a new eugenics kind of bubbling to the surface. It's supposed to be a kinder, gentler, positive eugenics. Different, you know, than all that past stuff. But I think even though it's focused on trying to improve people, it could have negative consequences. And it really worries me that some of the top proponents²³ of this new eugenics, they think CRISPR is the ticket to make it happen.

RAZ: I - I'm not a religious person, but I'm really troubled by the idea that we - we take over a natural process that - that nature essentially²⁴ stops in humans. And humans, we become God.

KNOEPFLER: You know, I - I've thought about that too, and I feel like as much as, you know, the human race is amazing, right, and we have these amazing brains and we've come so far technologically-speaking. Sometimes our technologies race ahead of our ability to really place them in a wise context and know what to do or not to do with the technologies, and, you know, we end up with atomic weapons and things like that. And I don't think it's - it's too outlandish to say using CRISPR in humans in a heritable manner would be akin²² to kind of, like, playing God.

RAZ: I mean, no one's going to just stop researching this. No one's going to stop looking at the possibility of it because it is inspiring. It is full of wonder - idea that you could stumble upon or come upon the technology to do this. I mean, I understand why somebody would want to pursue that 'cause it's - it's wondrous²⁵.

KNOEPFLER: Yeah. You know, it may be that it's not, you know, yes or no. It may be just that we are as a collective society going to be going down that path whether some of us like it or not. And, in fact, I don't think that we can really just say stop. You know, I think people will use this, and so it just means we need to be having more of these kinds of conversations like we're having right now trying to anticipate what are going to be the consequences. And we should be trying to talk about both the exciting sides of it and also the sides that maybe have a darker edge to them as well.

RAZ: Biologist Paul Knoepfler. He also writes a science blog called The Niche²⁶. You can hear his full talk at ted.com.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

1 awesome   

adj.令人惊叹的，难得吓人的，很好的

参考例句：

• The church in Ireland has always exercised an awesome power.爱尔兰的教堂一直掌握着令人敬畏的权力。
• That new white convertible is totally awesome.那辆新的白色折篷汽车简直棒极了.

2 gene   

n.遗传因子，基因

参考例句：

• A single gene may have many effects.单一基因可能具有很多种效应。
• The targeting of gene therapy has been paid close attention.其中基因治疗的靶向性是值得密切关注的问题之一。

3 genes   

n.基因( gene的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• You have good genes from your parents, so you should live a long time. 你从父母那儿获得优良的基因，所以能够活得很长。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• Differences will help to reveal the functions of the genes. 它们间的差异将会帮助我们揭开基因多种功能。 来自英汉非文学 - 生命科学 - 生物技术的世纪

4 genetic   

adj.遗传的，遗传学的

参考例句：

• It's very difficult to treat genetic diseases.遗传性疾病治疗起来很困难。
• Each daughter cell can receive a full complement of the genetic information.每个子细胞可以收到遗传信息的一个完全补偿物。

5 ted   

vt.翻晒，撒，撒开

参考例句：

• The invaders gut ted the village.侵略者把村中财物洗劫一空。
• She often teds the corn when it's sunny.天好的时候她就翻晒玉米。

6 modifications   

n.缓和( modification的名词复数 )；限制；更改；改变

参考例句：

• The engine was pulled apart for modifications and then reassembled. 发动机被拆开改型，然后再组装起来。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• The original plan had undergone fairly extensive modifications. 原计划已经作了相当大的修改。 来自《简明英汉词典》

7 genetically   

adv.遗传上

参考例句：

• All the bees in the colony are genetically related. 同一群体的蜜蜂都有亲缘关系。
• Genetically modified foods have already arrived on American dinner tables. 经基因改造加工过的食物已端上了美国人的餐桌。 来自英汉非文学 - 生命科学 - 基因与食物

8 embryo   

n.胚胎，萌芽的事物

参考例句：

• They are engaging in an embryo research.他们正在进行一项胚胎研究。
• The project was barely in embryo.该计划只是个雏形。

9 embryos   

n.晶胚；胚，胚胎( embryo的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• Somatic cells of angiosperms enter a regenerative phase and behave like embryos. 被子植物体细胞进入一个生殖阶段，而且其行为象胚。 来自辞典例句
• Evolution can explain why human embryos look like gilled fishes. 进化论能够解释为什么人类的胚胎看起来象除去了内脏的鱼一样。 来自辞典例句

10 athletic   

adj.擅长运动的，强健的；活跃的，体格健壮的

参考例句：

• This area has been marked off for athletic practice.这块地方被划出来供体育训练之用。
• He is an athletic star.他是一个运动明星。

11 gut   

n.[pl.]胆量；内脏；adj.本能的；vt.取出内脏

参考例句：

• It is not always necessary to gut the fish prior to freezing.冷冻鱼之前并不总是需要先把内脏掏空。
• My immediate gut feeling was to refuse.我本能的直接反应是拒绝。

12 narcissism   

n.自我陶醉，自恋

参考例句：

• Those who suffer from narcissism become self-absorbed.自恋的人会变得自私。
• The collective narcissism of the Kerouac circle is ultimately boring.凯鲁亚克和他周围人物的集体自我陶醉欲最终使人厌烦不已。

13 disarray   

n.混乱，紊乱，凌乱

参考例句：

• His personal life fell into disarray when his wife left him.妻子离去后，他的个人生活一片混乱。
• Our plans were thrown into disarray by the rail strike.铁路罢工打乱了我们的计划。

14 technologically   

ad.技术上地

参考例句：

• Shanghai is a technologically advanced city. 上海是中国的一个技术先进的城市。
• Many senior managers are technologically illiterate. 许多高级经理都对技术知之甚少。

15 risky   

adj.有风险的，冒险的

参考例句：

• It may be risky but we will chance it anyhow.这可能有危险，但我们无论如何要冒一冒险。
• He is well aware how risky this investment is.他心里对这项投资的风险十分清楚。

16 syndrome   

n.综合病症；并存特性

参考例句：

• The Institute says that an unidentified virus is to blame for the syndrome. 该研究所表示,引起这种综合症的是一种尚未确认的病毒。
• Results indicated that 11 fetuses had Down syndrome. 结果表明有11个胎儿患有唐氏综合征。

17 cleft   

n.裂缝；adj.裂开的

参考例句：

• I hid the message in a cleft in the rock.我把情报藏在石块的裂缝里。
• He was cleft from his brother during the war.在战争期间，他与他的哥哥分离。

18 debilitating   

a.使衰弱的

参考例句：

• The debilitating disease made him too weak to work. 这个令他衰弱的病，使他弱到没有办法工作。
• You may soon leave one debilitating condition or relationship forever. 你即将永远地和这段霉运说拜拜了。

19 tricky   

adj.狡猾的，奸诈的；(工作等)棘手的，微妙的

参考例句：

• I'm in a rather tricky position.Can you help me out?我的处境很棘手，你能帮我吗？
• He avoided this tricky question and talked in generalities.他回避了这个非常微妙的问题，只做了个笼统的表述。

20 weird   

adj.古怪的，离奇的；怪诞的，神秘而可怕的

参考例句：

• From his weird behaviour,he seems a bit of an oddity.从他不寻常的行为看来，他好像有点怪。
• His weird clothes really gas me.他的怪衣裳简直笑死人。

21 moratorium   

n.(行动、活动的)暂停(期)，延期偿付

参考例句：

• The government has called for a moratorium on weapons testing.政府已要求暂停武器试验。
• We recommended a moratorium on two particular kinds of experiments.我们建议暂禁两种特殊的实验。

22 akin   

adj.同族的，类似的

参考例句：

• She painted flowers and birds pictures akin to those of earlier feminine painters.她画一些同早期女画家类似的花鸟画。
• Listening to his life story is akin to reading a good adventure novel.听他的人生故事犹如阅读一本精彩的冒险小说。

23 proponents   

n.（某事业、理论等的）支持者，拥护者( proponent的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• Reviewing courts were among the most active proponents of hybrid rulemaking procedures. 复审法院是最积极的混合型规则制定程序的建议者。 来自英汉非文学 - 行政法
• Proponents of such opinions were arrested as 'traitors. ' 提倡这种主张的人马上作为“卖国贼”逮捕起来。 来自辞典例句

24 essentially   

adv.本质上，实质上，基本上

参考例句：

• Really great men are essentially modest.真正的伟人大都很谦虚。
• She is an essentially selfish person.她本质上是个自私自利的人。

25 wondrous   

adj.令人惊奇的，奇妙的；adv.惊人地；异乎寻常地；令人惊叹地

参考例句：

• The internal structure of the Department is wondrous to behold.看一下国务院的内部结构是很有意思的。
• We were driven across this wondrous vast land of lakes and forests.我们乘车穿越这片有着湖泊及森林的广袤而神奇的土地。

26 niche   

n.壁龛；合适的职务(环境、位置等)

参考例句：

• Madeleine placed it carefully in the rocky niche. 玛德琳小心翼翼地把它放在岩石壁龛里。
• The really talented among women would always make their own niche.妇女中真正有才能的人总是各得其所。