美国国家公共电台 NPR 25 Years After The Tanks, Tear Gas And Flames, 'Waco' Returns To TV

 

AILSA CHANG, HOST:

Twenty-five years ago, it seemed all eyes were fixed¹ on Waco.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "ABC WORLD NEWS TONIGHT")

WALTER RODGERS: The federal agents came under heavy and sustained fire as they approached a ranch² owned by Texas religious cult³ leader Vernon Howell, also known as David Koresh.

CHANG: That's Walter Rodgers reporting for "ABC World News Tonight" on February 28, 1993. That day the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms attempted to raid a compound owned by a fringe Christian⁴ group called the Branch Davidians. The ATF suspected the group was illegally stockpiling weapons.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:

Four agents and six Davidians were killed. And thus began a standoff between the Davidians and federal law enforcement. It lasted 51 days while the nation followed along on TV. And it ended with tanks and tear gas and the compound going up in flames.

CHANG: Well, this story is happening again on TV, this time in a six-part miniseries called simply "Waco." It's largely based on the accounts of two men who were there - Gary Noesner, the FBI's chief hostage negotiator, and David Thibodeau, one of the few people inside the compound who made it out alive. Both men recently spoke⁵ with our co-host, Kelly McEvers. Thibodeau talked about how he first met David Koresh and his right-hand man, Steve Schneider. They needed a drummer for their band.

KELLY MCEVERS, BYLINE⁶: It's one of the many surprising things, I think, about this miniseries, is to learn that David Koresh was, like, in a band and liked to play rock 'n' roll.

DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah.

MCEVERS: How did you end up at the compound?

THIBODEAU: Over the course of six months I got to know the guys. You know, we'd jam a little bit, and then sometimes they would come over to give studies. They made it very clear that a big part of their music was about Scripture⁷. One of the things that impressed me most was one of the first times I had a study with Steve Schneider he opened a Scripture and every single page was color-coded. The notes were just studious. It was like an intellectual thing more than just proselytizing⁸ to someone. And that really interested me. That's kind of - I always listened to the TV preachers on television and I could just see right through them. David wasn't that easy to see through.

MCEVERS: And, Gary, you know, how did federal law enforcement at that time view David Koresh? Like, what was the brief that you were given on David Koresh?

GARY NOESNER: I knew nothing about David Koresh until I got the phone call from my boss. It was just that this was a group that, you know, had non-traditional religious beliefs. And some would use the negative term cult. And there had been a shootout. And I was to get to the airport where we kept some FBI planes and fly out there and take over the negotiation⁹ process.

MCEVERS: You know, I want to talk about what we see in the miniseries, how we see the shootout, that first day, the day of the ATF raid. ATF agents roll in. They're in cattle trailers. They're wearing their tactical gear, carrying a lot of weapons. But the Branch Davidians have been tipped off. And David Koresh, who is played by Taylor Kitsch, at some point comes out of the compound with his hands up. I just want to listen to that scene.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "WACO")

TAYLOR KITSCH: (As David Koresh) Please stop.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Keep your hands in the air, and get on the ground now.

KITSCH: (As David Koresh) There are women and children in here.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Get on the ground now.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Here we go.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character) Shots fired. Shots fired.

MCEVERS: So, you know, the ATF is shooting. The Davidians are shooting. Koresh is wounded. Agents are wounded. The Davidians later are calling 911, trying to ask for a cease-fire. But still to this day it's unclear who fired the first shot.

NOESNER: I think there's a fair amount of controversy¹⁰. ATF's position is that Koresh was armed and he fired first. And, you know, the folks inside say, no, ATF shot first. I don't really know. And when I go as a negotiator, I don't really care. I mean, that's really not what I'm there to do, is to adjudicate the right or wrong of what occurred. My job is to make sure nothing bad happens after that. And then we can resolve it peacefully.

MCEVERS: And you eventually did negotiate to get some children out, yeah?

NOESNER: We got 35 people out through the negotiation process, including 21 children. I feel confident that we had done things a bit differently we could have secured the safe release of a good many more, perhaps everyone.

MCEVERS: What went wrong?

NOESNER: We had within - and this is what I like about this TV series so much, is they do look at this very complex incident from two perspectives, from inside looking out, outside looking in. We always knew that everyone in there was legitimately¹¹ enthralled¹² and believed in David Koresh's message and that's why were there. And it's also one of the reasons that complicated our resolution efforts because David's religious philosophy was that the end times are coming and the forces of evil will come against us. And the - in essence, the ATF raid validated¹³ that, you know, prophecy.

MCEVERS: Yeah.

THIBODEAU: But even more so than that - and I'm glad you brought that up. And this is, you know, no fault of the negotiators. I believe that the negotiators were really trying. There's no doubt about that. It's the fact that the tactical commanders would come in and override¹⁴ things that the negotiators would say to us - I wouldn't even say promise.

But during the course of conversation, certain things would be said and certain alliances or rapport¹⁵ built, and then the commanders would come in and just destroy all that work that they had done and made us so much more mistrustful and so much more into there's no way out of this. The world is fighting against the last message. And it just - it made it so much truer. And if they would have taken the opposite approach, it really...

MCEVERS: The force made it true, made the...

THIBODEAU: Yeah, absolutely.

NOESNER: Sadly, that's quite correct. And one of the frustrating¹⁶ things for us as a negotiation team is when we would reach a point of good cooperation and effect the release of someone, out of frustration¹⁷ and boredom¹⁸ or whatever it was the tactical team would sometimes take some actions on the perimeter¹⁹ that conveyed quite a different signal. A glaring example is the loud music and the loudspeakers that were projected onto the compound. You know, I told command at that time, number one, it's ineffective. It doesn't work. It's against our policy. And I said, at the least it's going to be embarrassing for us. And it was. And yet people to this day say, why did the negotiators do that? Well, we didn't.

MCEVERS: You guys met for the first time on the set of this show.

NOESNER: Yeah. We did.

THIBODEAU: Yeah. We really didn't run in the same circles before this. That's for sure.

(LAUGHTER)

NOESNER: And a bit of a funny story is when we were on set, been there a few days. And we were having lunch. And we ended up being a table together by ourselves. And David's back was to everyone, so I don't think he saw them. But through my peripheral²⁰ vision I'm seeing...

THIBODEAU: I could feel it.

NOESNER: ...Literally²¹ everybody in the crew is transfixed to say, are these guys going to break out in a fist fight or yell at each other? And we got along fine. There's clearly some areas where we have different perceptions about events. There's two perspectives on this. And indeed, this is a complex tragedy.

THIBODEAU: It's also - it's the - this is the kind of dialogue that needs to happen more often with American citizens. Everyone should be talking to each other to find out why they have the views that they do instead of just getting on Facebook and yelling at each other or the - nobody really talks. They don't listen.

MCEVERS: You know, David, you were one of just nine people who escaped the fire that ended all this on April 19. The bodies of 75 people were recovered from the scene. More than 20 of them were children. And you've lived with this for 25 years.

THIBODEAU: Yeah.

MCEVERS: What do you wish that people understood about Waco that they don't understand? Like, what do you think people just don't get?

THIBODEAU: That's - I'm so glad you asked that question. I mean, I really just want the people to be humanized in a way that they've honestly just been demonized through the press. There were real children, real mothers, real dynamics²² going on. It is very complex when there's that many people and that many people that are focused in the same direction. Honestly, it's about them. And I want them to be, you know, honored. You know, no matter what you think of David Koresh or the people that died there, they died for what they believed in. And that's more than I can say for, you know, lot of people.

MCEVERS: Well, David Thibodeau, the man who was on the inside, and Gary Noesner, the man who was on the outside, thanks to both of you.

NOESNER: Thank you.

THIBODEAU: Thank you.

KELLY: The TV miniseries "Waco" premieres tomorrow night on the Paramount²³ Network.

(SOUNDBITE OF GOAT RODEO'S "HELPING HAND")

1 fixed   

adj.固定的，不变的，准备好的；(计算机)固定的

参考例句：

• Have you two fixed on a date for the wedding yet?你们俩选定婚期了吗？
• Once the aim is fixed,we should not change it arbitrarily.目标一旦确定，我们就不应该随意改变。

2 ranch   

n.大牧场，大农场

参考例句：

• He went to work on a ranch.他去一个大农场干活。
• The ranch is in the middle of a large plateau.该牧场位于一个辽阔高原的中部。

3 cult   

n.异教，邪教；时尚，狂热的崇拜

参考例句：

• Her books aren't bestsellers,but they have a certain cult following.她的书算不上畅销书，但有一定的崇拜者。
• The cult of sun worship is probably the most primitive one.太阳崇拜仪式或许是最为原始的一种。

4 Christian   

adj.基督教徒的；n.基督教徒

参考例句：

• They always addressed each other by their Christian name.他们总是以教名互相称呼。
• His mother is a sincere Christian.他母亲是个虔诚的基督教徒。

5 spoke   

n.（车轮的）辐条；轮辐；破坏某人的计划；阻挠某人的行动 v.讲，谈（speak的过去式）；说；演说；从某种观点来说

参考例句：

• They sourced the spoke nuts from our company.他们的轮辐螺帽是从我们公司获得的。
• The spokes of a wheel are the bars that connect the outer ring to the centre.辐条是轮子上连接外圈与中心的条棒。

6 byline   

n.署名；v.署名

参考例句：

• His byline was absent as well.他的署名也不见了。
• We wish to thank the author of this article which carries no byline.我们要感谢这篇文章的那位没有署名的作者。

7 scripture   

n.经文，圣书，手稿；Scripture:(常用复数)《圣经》，《圣经》中的一段

参考例句：

• The scripture states that God did not want us to be alone.圣经指出上帝并不是想让我们独身一人生活。
• They invoked Hindu scripture to justify their position.他们援引印度教的经文为他们的立场辩护。

8 proselytizing   

v.（使）改变宗教信仰[政治信仰、意见等]，使变节( proselytize的现在分词 )

参考例句：

9 negotiation   

n.谈判，协商

参考例句：

• They closed the deal in sugar after a week of negotiation.经过一星期的谈判，他们的食糖生意成交了。
• The negotiation dragged on until July.谈判一直拖到7月份。

10 controversy   

n.争论，辩论，争吵

参考例句：

• That is a fact beyond controversy.那是一个无可争论的事实。
• We ran the risk of becoming the butt of every controversy.我们要冒使自己在所有的纷争中都成为众矢之的的风险。

11 legitimately   

ad.合法地；正当地，合理地

参考例句：

• The radio is legitimately owned by the company. 该电台为这家公司所合法拥有。
• She looked for nothing save what might come legitimately and without the appearance of special favour. 她要的并不是男人们的额外恩赐，而是合法正当地得到的工作。 来自英汉文学 - 嘉莉妹妹

12 enthralled   

迷住，吸引住( enthrall的过去式和过去分词 )； 使感到非常愉快

参考例句：

• The child watched, enthralled by the bright moving images. 这孩子看着那明亮的移动的影像，被迷住了。
• The children listened enthralled as the storyteller unfolded her tale. 讲故事的人一步步展开故事情节，孩子们都听得入迷了。

13 validated   

v.证实( validate的过去式和过去分词 )；确证；使生效；使有法律效力

参考例句：

• Time validated our suspicion. 时间证实了我们的怀疑。 来自《现代英汉综合大词典》
• The decade of history since 1927 had richly validated their thesis. 1927年以来的十年的历史，充分证明了他们的论点。 来自辞典例句

14 override   

vt.不顾，不理睬，否决；压倒，优先于

参考例句：

• The welfare of a child should always override the wishes of its parents.孩子的幸福安康应该永远比父母的愿望来得更重要。
• I'm applying in advance for the authority to override him.我提前申请当局对他进行否决。

15 rapport   

n.和睦，意见一致

参考例句：

• She has an excellent rapport with her staff.她跟她职员的关系非常融洽。
• We developed a high degree of trust and a considerable personal rapport.我们发展了高度的互相信任和不错的私人融洽关系。

16 frustrating   

adj.产生挫折的，使人沮丧的，令人泄气的v.使不成功( frustrate的现在分词 )；挫败；使受挫折；令人沮丧

参考例句：

• It's frustrating to have to wait so long. 要等这么长时间，真令人懊恼。
• It was a demeaning and ultimately frustrating experience. 那是一次有失颜面并且令人沮丧至极的经历。 来自《简明英汉词典》

17 frustration   

n.挫折，失败，失效，落空

参考例句：

• He had to fight back tears of frustration.他不得不强忍住失意的泪水。
• He beat his hands on the steering wheel in frustration.他沮丧地用手打了几下方向盘。

18 boredom   

n.厌烦，厌倦，乏味，无聊

参考例句：

• Unemployment can drive you mad with boredom.失业会让你无聊得发疯。
• A walkman can relieve the boredom of running.跑步时带着随身听就不那么乏味了。

19 perimeter   

n.周边，周长，周界

参考例句：

• The river marks the eastern perimeter of our land.这条河标示我们的土地东面的边界。
• Drinks in hands,they wandered around the perimeter of the ball field.他们手里拿着饮料在球场周围漫不经心地遛跶。

20 peripheral   

adj.周边的，外围的

参考例句：

• We dealt with the peripheral aspects of a cost reduction program.我们谈到了降低成本计划的一些外围问题。
• The hotel provides the clerk the service and the peripheral traveling consultation.旅舍提供票务服务和周边旅游咨询。

21 literally   

adv.照字面意义，逐字地；确实

参考例句：

• He translated the passage literally.他逐字逐句地翻译这段文字。
• Sometimes she would not sit down till she was literally faint.有时候，她不走到真正要昏厥了，决不肯坐下来。

22 dynamics   

n.力学，动力学，动力，原动力；动态

参考例句：

• In order to succeed,you must master complicated knowledge of dynamics.要取得胜利，你必须掌握很复杂的动力学知识。
• Dynamics is a discipline that cannot be mastered without extensive practice.动力学是一门不做大量习题就不能掌握的学科。

23 paramount   

a.最重要的，最高权力的

参考例句：

• My paramount object is to save the Union and destroy slavery.我的最高目标是拯救美国，摧毁奴隶制度。
• Nitrogen is of paramount importance to life on earth.氮对地球上的生命至关重要。