美国国家公共电台 NPR Meet The Activist Who Uncovered The Russian Troll Factory Named In The Mueller Probe

 

ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:

We've been talking for months about Russian interference in the U.S. elections and ongoing² Russian cyberattacks. Well, today the Trump³ administration hit back, imposing⁴ new sanctions that freeze the U.S.-based assets of 19 Russian individuals and five organizations. Those sanctions also bar Americans from dealing⁵ with them. It's the most significant move the Trump administration has taken to counter this recent Russian aggression⁶.

Our colleague, Mary Louise Kelly, is actually in Moscow this week. She's reporting on the Russian presidential elections. Hi, Mary Louise.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, BYLINE⁷: Hello, my friend.

SHAPIRO: I want to hear what you've been hearing from people there about Russian interference in the U.S. elections. What do they think of all the investigations⁸ happening here in the U.S.?

KELLY: They see this so differently than most Americans in the U.S. It is fascinating. And I'm going to introduce you in a minute to two Russian politics watchers with very different and opposing views on all this. But let me set the stage by first taking you to a place that may not look like much but which tells us so much about the beginning of this story, the story of how Russia came to play a role in our 2016 election.

OK, this is number 55 Savushkina Street. And this is not Moscow. This is St. Petersburg. The building at this address is made of concrete. It's about four stories high. There's a trolley¹⁰ car that rolls past every few minutes. We sent a producer to the outskirts¹¹ of St. Petersburg to check it out. And she described how if you stand there and stare at this building, you will start to notice details - details like all of the windows are blocked by heavy drapes, details like the surveillance cameras bristling¹² all over the building. A building which, by the way, does not have a name, no nameplate, but unofficially people call it the troll factory.

LYUDMILA SAVCHUK: (Through interpreter) The factory worked 24 hours a day, seven days a week. There was a day shift, a night shift, and even shifts over to holidays. The factory worked every single second.

I am Lyudmila Savchuk. I am investigative journalist in propaganda in media.

KELLY: Our producer met Lyudmila Savchuk at a coffee shop. And Savchuk described the two months that she spent working undercover there at the troll factory. This is 2015. Savchuk told us a few hundred people would be in the building at any given time. And they were divided into groups. Those with the best English posed as Americans, creating accounts on Facebook and on Twitter, and then they would use those troll accounts to stir up trouble on, say, the U.S. election or race relations.

SAVCHUK: (Through interpreter) It is laughable when Putin says that we do not know about trolls or that trolls do not exist because when anyone looks through the Kremlin newspapers or state TV, they can see that the propaganda in that media is the exact same stuff that the trolls are posting.

KELLY: Savchuk wrote blog posts for the LiveJournal account of an imaginary Russian woman. And these posts were meant for Russian readers to try to inflame¹³ anti-American feelings. These posts, they got creative.

SAVCHUK: (Through interpreter) We made up a post about a new computer game created in the States that even kids loved to play. And the theme of the game was slavery. And this was to stir negative tensions towards Americans as the creators of this game.

KELLY: A game of course which never existed, much like the woman writing about the game. All of it was fake. And just as Americans wonder about trolls and bots and fake accounts sowing division and discord¹⁴ in the United States, Lyudmila Savchuk told us she worries about the impact on Russian society.

SAVCHUK: (Through interpreter) For the public, it is harmful because we are brainwashed. We won't be able to understand what is really happening. We are put against one another. And we are sliding back into the old ways when we were searching for the enemy among us, our friends and colleagues. That feeling from the Soviet¹⁵ times, I can feel it everywhere.

KELLY: So, Ari, a voice there from the trenches¹⁶ - or the production line, as it were - of a Russian troll factory.

SHAPIRO: There was a troll factory at the center of the indictments¹⁷ that special counsel Robert Mueller's team recently announced. Same troll factory in St. Petersburg?

KELLY: Same troll factory in St. Petersburg. You can see it there on Page 5 of that Mueller indictment¹⁸. Lyudmila Savchuk says she actually worked with several of the trolls who are named in the Mueller indictment. She told us she's delighted that they have been charged with interfering¹⁹ in the U.S. election. She hopes every single one of those trolls is prosecuted²⁰. You know, one point - just to enlarge on something you heard her hint at there, Savchuk told us she is absolutely convinced the Kremlin controls the troll factories. And that of course is something the Kremlin denies.

SHAPIRO: This brings us back to a question that we began with. Do Russians believe that their government is messing with American politics? And if so, do they care?

KELLY: So I had the most fascinating debate about this with a couple of Russians here at the NPR Moscow bureau. Let me introduce you to these two guys. Konstantin Gaaze - journalist, analyst²¹, middle-of-the-road. He's affiliated²² with the Carnegie Moscow Center. And then Sergey Markov, who is a former member of the Duma, Russia's parliament. And as you will hear, he is a Putin guy.

So I want to just play you a few of the highlights of our discussion, which started with this basic question. I said, U.S. intelligence has concluded that Russia interfered²³ in the 2016 presidential election. And I asked these two, do you buy it? And do you buy that Vladimir Putin personally ordered that interference campaign? Here's Konstantin Gaaze.

KONSTANTIN GAAZE: I don't believe it in terms of order as official order. In terms of some back negotiations²⁴ - totally informal, not even giving the free-to-go or knowing the plan of operation, just if we can do so, let's do so.

KELLY: So that's one voice. Now here's Sergey Markov.

SERGEY MARKOV: I'm absolutely sure that Vladimir Putin and presidential administration, Russian Foreign Ministry²⁵ and Russian intelligence service did not interfere¹ to the United States elections.

KELLY: You're sure they did not.

MARKOV: I'm absolutely sure with a few reason. You mentioned that United States intelligence service told that that's clear evidence that Russian authorities involved in this.

KELLY: Unanimous opinion - 17 U.S. spy agencies.

MARKOV: You trust them. We are not.

KELLY: You do not.

MARKOV: We think that American people losing its control over the United States intelligence service community.

KELLY: Why?

MARKOV: Because crisis of democracy.

KELLY: It's not just U.S. intelligence services say this, the Kremlin says this. Other countries also say that Russia is interfering in their politics. Most recently Germany has said this. How do you explain that, Sergey Markov?

MARKOV: Hundred percent propaganda. No...

KELLY: German, French, American...

MARKOV: Yes, 100 percent...

KELLY: ...British...

MARKOV: All of them.

KELLY: They're all making it up?

MARKOV: Yes - Great Britain, France, Germany, Netherlands, Italy.

KELLY: Konstantin Gaaze.

GAAZE: I would say both in Washington and Moscow everybody overestimates²⁶ the level of coordination²⁷ in the intelligence community. First of all, each and any intelligence community is a bunch of bureaucrats²⁸ sitting up in the hills. I call it night state, like those - it's not a deep state.

KELLY: What's night state then?

GAAZE: Night state is operatives who are not officially hired by government but have certain level of access to President Putin personally, to his allies, to his counsels, to his advisers²⁹ and so on and so on. And they do some job. Half of the job is paid, half of the job is done just because they think that it will be good to do such a job. Russian bureaucracy doesn't operate with such high level of coordination.

KELLY: You're saying you don't think Russian intelligence, if they'd wanted to swing the election to Donald Trump...

GAAZE: Even if they wanted...

KELLY: ...They didn't have the ability.

GAAZE: They didn't have the ability to do it with such high level of coordination.

SHAPIRO: Mary Louise, it's interesting to me that the spectrum³⁰ of opinion you're finding in Russia is from somebody saying, Putin had nothing to do with it, this is bogus to somebody saying, well, maybe they had something to do with it, but not that much. (Laughter) There isn't even a voice here saying, yeah, the U.S. intelligence agencies are right.

KELLY: Those voices are few and far between here in Moscow, Ari.

SHAPIRO: Do you get a sense that Russians are following this closely? Is it front page news in Moscow?

KELLY: Yes and no. It is safe to say your average Joe - call him your average Ivan here in Russia - is not hanging on every word of special counsel Robert Mueller. I asked Gaaze, you know, the inside-the-Beltway crowd - or here in Moscow I guess it'd be the inside-the-Ring Road crowd - do they know who Jim Comey is? And are they following all the players in the Russia investigations unfolding in Washington? Here's what he told me.

GAAZE: Russian political elite³¹ is not obsessed³² with U.S.

KELLY: No?

GAAZE: No. Maybe some inner circle near the president, Putin, maybe they obsessed a little bit just because most of them, they are Cold War-era gentleman. They're more obsessed with Russia-China relations and the threat that China may create for Russia.

KELLY: Sergey Markov, do you agree?

MARKOV: Not fully³³ because from here I'm going to the Russian TV, one of the leading Russian TV channel, NTV, where we - today we will two hours discussion about U.S.-Russian elections, about Mueller investigation⁹. But how Russian public see this Mueller investigation? As TV serial³⁴, as great drama.

KELLY: TV serial?

MARKOV: Serial, like...

KELLY: A soap opera.

MARKOV: Yes. Yes (laughter).

GAAZE: Like "Homeland."

KELLY: We see - we also in Washington...

MARKOV: "House Of Cards."

KELLY: (Laughter) There's a bit of a soap opera.

MARKOV: You know, real "House Of Cards." You know, this drama - Mueller against Trump, Trump against Senate and...

KELLY: And his own attorney general, Jeff Sessions.

MARKOV: Yeah. What will happen? And we are sitting in big auditorium³⁵ and watching this drama. It's also one of the things which people know here for sure - Russia will be blamed for everything.

KELLY: Ari, that is the line you hear here. Russia will be blamed for everything. And, you know, this makes me think of just one footnote to the conversation. The whole strange saga³⁶ of Sergei Skripal, the former Russian spy poisoned in England, has been playing out front page news here this whole week when we've been here in Russia.

SHAPIRO: Interesting.

KELLY: And - yeah. You could have a really similar conversation as the one I've just been telling you about about Russian interference because the official government reaction has been the same. We didn't do it. Why does Russia get the blame every time? This is a circus show.

SHAPIRO: Or as the U.S. president might say, fake news.

KELLY: (Laughter) Yeah. I think that's the Russian translation of fake news.

SHAPIRO: Our host, Mary Louise Kelly, reporting from Moscow. Thanks so much.

KELLY: You're welcome.

(SOUNDBITE OF STRFKR SONG, "RAWNALD GREGORY ERICKSON THE SECOND")

1 interfere   

v.(in)干涉，干预；(with)妨碍，打扰

参考例句：

• If we interfere, it may do more harm than good.如果我们干预的话，可能弊多利少。
• When others interfere in the affair,it always makes troubles. 别人一卷入这一事件，棘手的事情就来了。

2 ongoing   

adj.进行中的，前进的

参考例句：

• The problem is ongoing.这个问题尚未解决。
• The issues raised in the report relate directly to Age Concern's ongoing work in this area.报告中提出的问题与“关心老人”组织在这方面正在做的工作有直接的关系。

3 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

4 imposing   

adj.使人难忘的，壮丽的，堂皇的，雄伟的

参考例句：

• The fortress is an imposing building.这座城堡是一座宏伟的建筑。
• He has lost his imposing appearance.他已失去堂堂仪表。

5 dealing   

n.经商方法，待人态度

参考例句：

• This store has an excellent reputation for fair dealing.该商店因买卖公道而享有极高的声誉。
• His fair dealing earned our confidence.他的诚实的行为获得我们的信任。

6 aggression   

n.进攻，侵略，侵犯，侵害

参考例句：

• So long as we are firmly united, we need fear no aggression.只要我们紧密地团结，就不必惧怕外来侵略。
• Her view is that aggression is part of human nature.她认为攻击性是人类本性的一部份。

7 byline   

n.署名；v.署名

参考例句：

• His byline was absent as well.他的署名也不见了。
• We wish to thank the author of this article which carries no byline.我们要感谢这篇文章的那位没有署名的作者。

8 investigations   

（正式的）调查( investigation的名词复数 )； 侦查； 科学研究； 学术研究

参考例句：

• His investigations were intensive and thorough but revealed nothing. 他进行了深入彻底的调查，但没有发现什么。
• He often sent them out to make investigations. 他常常派他们出去作调查。

9 investigation   

n.调查，调查研究

参考例句：

• In an investigation,a new fact became known, which told against him.在调查中新发现了一件对他不利的事实。
• He drew the conclusion by building on his own investigation.他根据自己的调查研究作出结论。

10 trolley   

n.手推车，台车；无轨电车；有轨电车

参考例句：

• The waiter had brought the sweet trolley.侍者已经推来了甜食推车。
• In a library,books are moved on a trolley.在图书馆，书籍是放在台车上搬动的。

11 outskirts   

n.郊外，郊区

参考例句：

• Our car broke down on the outskirts of the city.我们的汽车在市郊出了故障。
• They mostly live on the outskirts of a town.他们大多住在近郊。

12 bristling   

a.竖立的

参考例句：

• "Don't you question Miz Wilkes' word,'said Archie, his beard bristling. "威尔克斯太太的话，你就不必怀疑了。 "阿尔奇说。他的胡子也翘了起来。
• You were bristling just now. 你刚才在发毛。

13 inflame   

v.使燃烧；使极度激动；使发炎

参考例句：

• Our lack of response seemed to inflame the colonel.由于我们没有反应,好象惹恼了那个上校。
• Chemical agents manufactured by our immune system inflame our cells and tissues,causing our nose to run and our throat to swell.我们的免疫系统产生的化学物质导致我们的细胞和组织发炎，导致我们流鼻水和我们的喉咙膨胀。

14 discord   

n.不和，意见不合，争论，（音乐）不和谐

参考例句：

• These two answers are in discord.这两个答案不一样。
• The discord of his music was hard on the ear.他演奏的不和谐音很刺耳。

15 Soviet   

adj.苏联的，苏维埃的；n.苏维埃

参考例句：

• Zhukov was a marshal of the former Soviet Union.朱可夫是前苏联的一位元帅。
• Germany began to attack the Soviet Union in 1941.德国在1941年开始进攻苏联。

16 trenches   

深沟，地沟( trench的名词复数 )； 战壕

参考例句：

• life in the trenches 第一次世界大战期间的战壕生活
• The troops stormed the enemy's trenches and fanned out across the fields. 部队猛攻敌人的战壕，并在田野上呈扇形散开。

17 indictments   

n.（制度、社会等的）衰败迹象( indictment的名词复数 )；刑事起诉书；公诉书；控告

参考例句：

• A New York jury brought criminal indictments against the founder of the organization. 纽约的一个陪审团对这个组织的创始人提起了多项刑事诉讼。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• These two indictments are self-evident and require no elaboration. 这两条意义自明，无须多说。 来自互联网

18 indictment   

n.起诉；诉状

参考例句：

• He handed up the indictment to the supreme court.他把起诉书送交最高法院。
• They issued an indictment against them.他们起诉了他们。

19 interfering   

adj. 妨碍的 动词interfere的现在分词

参考例句：

• He's an interfering old busybody! 他老爱管闲事！
• I wish my mother would stop interfering and let me make my own decisions. 我希望我母亲不再干预，让我自己拿主意。

20 prosecuted   

a.被起诉的

参考例句：

• The editors are being prosecuted for obscenity. 编辑因刊载污秽文字而被起诉。
• The company was prosecuted for breaching the Health and Safety Act. 这家公司被控违反《卫生安全条例》。

21 analyst   

n.分析家，化验员；心理分析学家

参考例句：

• What can you contribute to the position of a market analyst?你有什么技能可有助于市场分析员的职务？
• The analyst is required to interpolate values between standards.分析人员需要在这些标准中插入一些值。

22 affiliated   

adj. 附属的, 有关连的

参考例句：

• The hospital is affiliated with the local university. 这家医院附属于当地大学。
• All affiliated members can vote. 所有隶属成员都有投票权。

23 interfered   

v.干预( interfere的过去式和过去分词 )；调停；妨碍；干涉

参考例句：

• Complete absorption in sports interfered with his studies. 专注于运动妨碍了他的学业。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• I am not going to be interfered with. 我不想别人干扰我的事情。 来自《简明英汉词典》

24 negotiations   

协商( negotiation的名词复数 )； 谈判； 完成（难事）； 通过

参考例句：

• negotiations for a durable peace 为持久和平而进行的谈判
• Negotiations have failed to establish any middle ground. 谈判未能达成任何妥协。

25 ministry   

n.(政府的)部；牧师

参考例句：

• They sent a deputation to the ministry to complain.他们派了一个代表团到部里投诉。
• We probed the Air Ministry statements.我们调查了空军部的记录。

26 overestimates   

对（数量）估计过高，对…作过高的评价( overestimate的第三人称单数 )

参考例句：

• These overestimates counterbalanced the uncertain risk of radiation releases after sealing. 这些过高估计抵消了在密封以后放射性物泄漏所产生的未知危害。 来自英汉非文学 - 环境法 - 环境法
• Never underestimate a man who overestimates himself. 切勿低估一个过高估计他自己的人。

27 coordination   

n.协调，协作

参考例句：

• Gymnastics is a sport that requires a considerable level of coordination.体操是一项需要高协调性的运动。
• The perfect coordination of the dancers and singers added a rhythmic charm to the performance.舞蹈演员和歌手们配合得很好，使演出更具魅力。

28 bureaucrats   

n.官僚( bureaucrat的名词复数 )；官僚主义；官僚主义者；官僚语言

参考例句：

• That is the fate of the bureaucrats, not the inspiration of statesmen. 那是官僚主义者的命运，而不是政治家的灵感。 来自辞典例句
• Big business and dozens of anonymous bureaucrats have as much power as Japan's top elected leaders. 大企业和许多不知名的官僚同日本选举出来的最高层领导者们的权力一样大。 来自辞典例句

29 advisers   

顾问，劝告者( adviser的名词复数 )； （指导大学新生学科问题等的）指导教授

参考例句：

• a member of the President's favoured circle of advisers 总统宠爱的顾问班子中的一员
• She withdrew to confer with her advisers before announcing a decision. 她先去请教顾问然后再宣布决定。

30 spectrum   

n.谱，光谱，频谱；范围，幅度，系列

参考例句：

• This is a kind of atomic spectrum.这是一种原子光谱。
• We have known much of the constitution of the solar spectrum.关于太阳光谱的构成，我们已了解不少。

31 elite   

n.精英阶层；实力集团；adj.杰出的，卓越的

参考例句：

• The power elite inside the government is controlling foreign policy.政府内部的一群握有实权的精英控制着对外政策。
• We have a political elite in this country.我们国家有一群政治精英。

32 obsessed   

adj.心神不宁的,鬼迷心窍的,沉迷的

参考例句：

• He's obsessed by computers. 他迷上了电脑。
• The fear of death obsessed him throughout his old life. 他晚年一直受着死亡恐惧的困扰。

33 fully   

adv.完全地，全部地，彻底地；充分地

参考例句：

• The doctor asked me to breathe in,then to breathe out fully.医生让我先吸气，然后全部呼出。
• They soon became fully integrated into the local community.他们很快就完全融入了当地人的圈子。

34 serial   

n.连本影片，连本电视节目；adj.连续的

参考例句：

• A new serial is starting on television tonight.今晚电视开播一部新的电视连续剧。
• Can you account for the serial failures in our experiment?你能解释我们实验屡屡失败的原因吗？

35 auditorium   

n.观众席，听众席；会堂，礼堂

参考例句：

• The teacher gathered all the pupils in the auditorium.老师把全体同学集合在礼堂内。
• The stage is thrust forward into the auditorium.舞台向前突出，伸入观众席。

36 saga   

n.(尤指中世纪北欧海盗的)故事，英雄传奇

参考例句：

• The saga of Flight 19 is probably the most repeated story about the Bermuda Triangle.飞行19中队的传说或许是有关百慕大三角最重复的故事。
• The novel depicts the saga of a family.小说描绘了一个家族的传奇故事。