美国国家公共电台 NPR Peter Navarro: A 'Bricklayer' Of Trump's Protectionist Wall（在线收听）

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST:

President Trump has amended several of his positions since inauguration. One thing has remained consistent, though, Trump's belief that the United States is getting a raw deal from international trade agreements.

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

His view is not shared by many Republicans. They used to be the free trade party. Opposition to free trade is heard from some on the left and also from presidential adviser Peter Navarro. Navarro heads the administration's National Trade Council and its Office of Trade and Manufacturing Policy.

MARTIN: He says America's trade deficits hurt the country's manufacturing base. And he argues that a weak manufacturing base is a national security threat.

PETER NAVARRO: What we're doing, essentially, is mortgaging our future. So when that money comes back, it comes back in the form of buying our financial assets, our companies, our farmland, our homes, our office buildings. It represents a transfer of our net worth that results from unfair trade deals and unfair trade practices.

INSKEEP: Navarro wants aggressive countermeasures, like new tariffs on some imports or renegotiation of trade deals like NAFTA.

MARTIN: He's very controversial among his fellow economists. That doesn't bother him at all, though. He laid out his ideas and priorities when we spoke with him yesterday.

NAVARRO: So the first thing we have to recognize is that the key to a strong government and a strong budget is a strong economy. And you can't have a strong economy without a strong manufacturing base.

MARTIN: You have staked your career as an economist on this idea that global trade has harmed America and that the U.S. has lost out because of globalization. But there is a broad consensus among leading economists that free trade works, that the benefits outweigh the costs. What data are you seeing that the majority of American economists aren't seeing?

NAVARRO: Well, first, let me quote the great Vice President Mike Pence on the campaign trail. "The people in Fort Wayne know different. The people in Scranton know different."

MARTIN: Although, we should say that just because a certain community has been disproportionately affected by the trends of globalization does not make it true for the entire country.

NAVARRO: You asked me what the data is. Well, let's start with the $700-billion trade deficit in goods that we run every year. Three hundred and fifty billion of that is with China. Seventy billion of that's with Germany. Another 65 or 70 billion of that is with Japan. They're all running surpluses against us. Malaysia...

MARTIN: Don't we run our own surpluses against even some of our neighbors - Canada, Australia?

NAVARRO: Problem's not Canada or Australia, it's the 15 or 16 countries that we run massive deficits with that total up to $700 billion. But you said, you know, what's the data? The data is simple. If you look at the last 17 years - people know this - they haven't seen their average household income, in real terms, rise. And that is because we've lost our manufacturing base. More data...

MARTIN: But how much of that loss has to do with new technology that has made these systems, made these corporations, made these plants more efficient and productive?

NAVARRO: Demographics and automation are part of the puzzle. But the biggest piece of the action is the unfair trade practices and bad trade deals. And if you don't believe that, just go to the booming factories in Germany, in Japan, in Korea, in China, in Malaysia, in Vietnam, in Indonesia, in Italy. Every place that we're running deficits with are...

MARTIN: Is it frustrating to you that most economists don't agree with you? Is that a source of...

NAVARRO: No, I mean...

MARTIN: ...Consternation?

NAVARRO: No. Look, here's what's interesting about most economists. If you take a hundred economists and put them in a room, probably 95 of them don't teach trade theory. I teach economics. I've taught it for 30 years. These theoretical models that economists postulate go in the dustbin of history, where it belongs.

MARTIN: So would you change? Would you switch America's economy for China's economy or Indonesia's economy?

NAVARRO: Not at all. Well, look, we have the best country in the world in terms of skill set, in terms of natural resources and in terms of manufacturing capability. If you go - and I've done this. If you go and tour throughout the Midwest, which is now the Rust Belt, that place was made to make things. I mean, it's a beautiful thing the way the highways and the rivers are stretched together and the rail lines. What's missing here is a level playing field. And anybody you talk to in any manufacturing facility will look you in the eye and tell you that. The economists just aren't listening.

MARTIN: I hear you. But when you talk - what if you look at agriculture, and you look at the Iowa corn farmer who's trying to be competitive selling his crops to Mexico?

NAVARRO: Agriculture is such an important part of this country. And there's certain portions of the agricultural sector who've been hurt just as badly by these trade deals as well. Here's the thing. Americans need to understand this. The thought process over the last 30 years has been to sacrifice our economy, often on the altar of foreign policy and geopolitics. A lot of these trade deals that we enter into are done not to create jobs here in America, not to boost our income, but to forge alliances and to address things other than the economy.

MARTIN: Well, on that point, Donald Trump has said he's not going to label China a currency manipulator because he needs their help on North Korea.

NAVARRO: Currency manipulation is the province of the Treasury secretary, Steve Mnuchin's. I have no comments on that at all. The broader point is whether or not this country is going to keep entering into trade deals to achieve other objectives....

MARTIN: You think that's wrong. You think that's ill advised...

NAVARRO: ...At the expense of the economy...

MARTIN: ...Letting national security issues...

NAVARRO: ...I will say that on the mountaintop every day I can, that we cannot sacrifice our jobs and our economy on the altar of foreign policy. We have to consider foreign policy issues and national security issues. There's no question about that. But we have to get things in proportion. And we have not done that for a long time.

MARTIN: Peter Navarro heads the new White House Office of Trade and Manufacturing Policy. He also leads the administration's National Trade Council. Mr. Navarro, thanks so much for your time.

NAVARRO: It's been a pleasure.