美国国家公共电台 NPR Iran's Foreign Minister: Renegotiating Nuclear Deal Would Damage U.S. Credibility（在线收听）

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

Iran's foreign minister is making his case for a nuclear deal, plausibly, for the final time. Mohammad Javad Zarif is finishing a visit to the United Nations here. He arrived weeks before a deadline for President Trump to extend U.S. participation in a deal that limits Iran's nuclear program. Trump has been pressing to withdraw or renegotiate, which Zarif does not accept at all.

MOHAMMAD JAVAD ZARIF: It is a package. You cannot pick and choose between the package and say, I want this, that and the other element improved.

INSKEEP: Do you mean to say that you will not negotiate any changes or additions to this agreement no matter what the United States and Europe may suggest?

ZARIF: I believe Europe has said that they're not prepared to renegotiate disagreements. And I think it's very prudent because anybody who participates in the negotiation of this deal would tell you that opening this package would be tantamount to opening a Pandora's box. And we'll never be able to close it.

INSKEEP: So the answer is no.

ZARIF: Yes.

INSKEEP: You're not going to talk this over again.

ZARIF: I think the United States doesn't want to send the message to the world that if you negotiate with the United States, the U.S. is going to come back and say, whatever I gave you, I want back.

INSKEEP: We met Zarif in Manhattan in the residence of Iran's U.N. ambassador. The foreign minister is in his late 50s. He was educated in the U.S., so he's making his case in a country he knows. He's racing from room to room arguing to diplomats and journalists that the agreement should stay. The deal negotiated under President Obama lifts some economic sanctions on Iran and provides permanent nuclear inspections. Critics complain, though, that Iran's missiles are not covered and that some provisions eventually expire.

As you know, foreign minister, some possibilities discussed here include keeping the deal but seeking, in some way, to add to it - to add additional safeguards that would reassure the United States. As you have noted in your public statements here, the agreement itself says that Iran will not ever seek a nuclear weapon. If you've already committed to that, what would the harm be in negotiating additional safeguards or more years...

ZARIF: No, because...

INSKEEP: ...To the agreement or anything else?

ZARIF: No, because those years to the agreement are not years to the agreement. Those are years to limitations that we voluntarily accepted, but they were the subject of two years of negotiations. And now for the United States to come back and say, we need more, that would be violating the foundations of the agreement.

INSKEEP: But why do you care if you're not on planning on having a nuclear weapon ever?

ZARIF: Because our nuclear program was never intended to produce nuclear weapons. Now, I'm not asking you to rely on me. Director Pompeo, who's the head of the CIA and who should know everything, said according to the best of my knowledge - as head of CIA - Iran was not racing towards a bomb before the agreement and will not be racing towards a bomb if we break the agreement.

INSKEEP: Mike Pompeo, President Trump's nominee for secretary of state, did say that during a confirmation hearing. The questions are harder, though, when it comes to Iran's involvement in its regions' wars.

Many people will know that Iran is supporting Syria's government in Syria's civil war.

ZARIF: No. No. We are fighting extremists.

INSKEEP: Yes, Iran's foreign minister just declined to say that his government supports Syria's government, even though many Iranian soldiers have been killed fighting alongside Syrian troops. Zarif says they're battling ISIS. Recent news makes it clear why he'd be so particular. Iran opposes chemical weapons, yet has not stopped chemical weapons attacks that are blamed on its Syrian allies. Meeting reporters over the weekend, Zarif seemed to suggest that fighting ISIS was simply more important than chemical weapons use, which prompted a follow-up question.

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UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Why does it have to be one or the other with Assad? Why can't you keep ISIS from falling and also send a message to Assad to check it?

ZARIF: Because we live in the real world. And in that real world, you need to fight ISIS. And at the same time, we need to push for respect for international and humanitarian law. We're not there to defend anybody. We're there to defeat something.

INSKEEP: Because we live in the real world, we're not there to defend anybody. We are there to defeat something. What do you mean by that?

ZARIF: As I said, we do not support the use of chemical weapons. We reject the use of chemical weapons. We need to fight a serious enemy that is a threat to the international community. In the fight against that serious enemy, you cannot violate the rules of international law. And that is a principle that we stand on, and that is a principle that we ask all our friends to observe.

INSKEEP: Although, are you acknowledging you feel that you really can't do anything about whatever Bashar al-Assad may do with chemical weapons?

ZARIF: You see, what we have said time and again is that you're pushing a narrative that he used chemical weapons. We believe that we need international investigation of the sites - on-site investigation.

INSKEEP: Do you have any information that would indicate why it is that when international chemical weapons inspectors arrived in Syria after the most recent attack, it took them something more than a week to get any access to the site?

ZARIF: I talked to the Syrian foreign minister, and they were supposed to be taken to the site the following day. It seems that security could not have been arranged. It seems that there were snipers who were shooting at them. But what we insisted from the very beginning was the need to carry out an on-site investigation.

INSKEEP: Here in New York, Iran's foreign minister faces questions about more than chemical weapons. Last night at the Council on Foreign Relations, he was sharply asked about Iranian-Americans in Iranian jails. It is a different tone than a few years ago when Iran seemed to be opening to the world.

One other thing I want to ask about, foreign minister. People who follow the news - Americans who follow the news from Iran will know that, in recent months, there have been a number of protests on different issues relating to the economy, relating to women's rights. What in your view is going on in Iranian society right now?

ZARIF: Well, you see, that's the right of our people. Sometimes those demonstrations get violent. And the way they are treated when they get violent in the United States - the same way is in Iran. And the government has to listen to...

INSKEEP: But that's what I mean. If you look at protests that you mentioned in the United States, they mean something. There's an excessive amount of protest now because people are upset about race relations. People are upset about President Trump. People are upset about gun violence. The protests send a message about where the public is. What did the protests say about the public in Iran right now and what they want from your government?

ZARIF: Primarily that their expectations for economic development were not met. Let me give you one example. We create between 700,000 to 900,000 jobs every year. That's a very good figure. Look at your own statistics, but 1.2 million people enter the job market every year.

INSKEEP: You're not keeping up.

ZARIF: We're not keeping up, and there is disenfranchisement. There is dissatisfaction. I mean, a family that had one son or daughter unemployed now has two sons or daughters. Although we create so many jobs, it's not enough.

INSKEEP: Your president promised in his last re-election campaign to address that shortfall of jobs by ending more sanctions and improving relations with the world. How disappointing is it to you that he's not able to do that?

ZARIF: Well, he has been very much able to do that. The entire international community is moving forward with that. It's the United States which is preventing it and calls itself supportive of the Iranian people, which is very hypocritical.

INSKEEP: Foreign minister, thanks very much.

ZARIF: Thank you.

INSKEEP: Mohammad Javad Zarif starts home to Iran today knowing that President Trump makes his next decision on the nuclear deal within a few weeks.