美国国家公共电台 NPR On The Trail With Democrat Steve Bullock: 'The Only One That Won A Trump State'（在线收听）

(SOUNDBITE OF THE BIGTOP ORCHESTRA'S "TEETER BOARD: FOLIES BERGERE (MARCH AND TWO-STEP)")

SCOTT DETROW, HOST:

Hey there. It's the NPR POLITICS PODCAST. I'm Scott Detrow. Throughout the summer, we're taking you on the road to meet the 2020 Democratic presidential candidates. These episodes are a collaboration with Iowa Public Radio and New Hampshire Public Radio. This week we're back in Iowa. We actually drove across almost all of Iowa to tape it, along with Iowa Public Radio's Kate Payne.

Wait a second - you're not Clay Masters.

KATE PAYNE, BYLINE: No, I'm not (laughter). I'm Kate Payne. I'm the eastern Iowa reporter for Iowa Public Radio.

DETROW: Well, welcome to the NPR POLITICS PODCAST.

PAYNE: Thank you. So good to be here.

DETROW: How long have you been with Iowa Public Radio?

PAYNE: So a little over a year. I got up here last March.

DETROW: What has been the most interesting thing about Iowa to you, looking at it as a newcomer?

PAYNE: It's been so wonderful to see all of these small towns and how alive these communities are and to be welcomed into people's homes. You know, candidates come into private homes and us reporters do as well, and people have just been so welcoming. Everybody wants to talk to you. Everybody wants to share their thoughts.

DETROW: The first stop on our journey - the Better Day Cafe in Storm Lake, Iowa, where Montana Governor Steve Bullock was working the room as people pressed paninis behind the counter.

STEVE BULLOCK: How are you all?

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Great.

BULLOCK: Thanks for coming out this morning. I'm Steve.

DETROW: Bullock was one of the very last Democrats to officially enter the race. He is a two-term governor of Montana, and in Storm Lake he got to the heart of his pitch. He's a Democrat who not only won in a red state the same year Donald Trump easily won it, but Bullock has been able to get some big Democratic priorities passed there, like expanding Medicaid.

BULLOCK: That's how government should work. And whether it's in Montana or in Iowa or Michigan or Wisconsin, we need to be able to be willing to go out and engage because the values of what people want - a safe community, decent job, a roof over their head, clean air and clean water, good public schools, the belief that you can do better for your kids and grandkids - it's not an urban or a rural or necessarily a red or a blue issue, and we need to be able connect.

DETROW: After Bullock spoke and shook hands, he got back into his car and drove another hour to Sioux City. We did the same, and we sat down to interview him in a hotel conference room looking out on the Missouri River.

Governor Bullock, welcome to the NPR POLITICS PODCAST.

BULLOCK: Scott, Kate - it's great to be with you.

DETROW: You were one of the last people to jump into the race, but you've been doing this for a little bit now. What is, like, the weirdest thing that has come along with running for president and suddenly running a national campaign for you?

BULLOCK: You know, I think probably the weirdest thing - and yeah, I'm a little less than a month into this. And never forget - so we announced in my - one of my old high school classrooms, and then as part of it, we're supposed to - we're going down for a brewery - to a brewery to have a beer. And I'm hooking up with friends from growing up. And there are 8 cameras watching you drink that beer.

So from that perspective, just, you know, not the visibility, but it's different certainly than - you know, I used to say, as governor of Montana, like, the first year, I - one of the things that I did is we publicly noticed that I was getting a flu shot. Right? And we did that in part because it was important that folks actually get flu shots. But when three cameras showed up, I said, never underestimate the power of this bully pulpit.

DETROW: Yeah.

BULLOCK: And kind of the full exposure is probably the most - the thing that takes a little bit to get used to. I mean Iowa - right? - used to be a testing ground for message. Now it's not even a testing ground for message; it's somebody's recording every single thing one says.

DETROW: And streaming it live, probably.

BULLOCK: (Laughter) Often that's the case, for sure.

DETROW: Yeah.

PAYNE: Yeah. And so you were the 22nd Democrat to enter this presidential race, and it's at a time when other Democrats in the country would really maybe rather you run for the U.S. Senate. What do you have to offer as a candidate and possible president that nobody else in this race does?

BULLOCK: Sure. Yeah, and I am in - when you look at a field of 24, I'm the only one that won a Trump state. I was on the ballot for reelection in 2016. Donald Trump took Montana by 20. I won by four. Twenty-five to 30% of my voters also voted for Donald Trump. And if we can't both bring out our base but also win back some of the places that we lost, we're not going to win this election.

And to me, also, it's more than about 270 electoral votes. I'm the only one in the field that have gotten progressive things done through a legislature that is more Republican than this one in Iowa. And I think we've got to figure out a way to bridge some of these divides and make government work again.

PAYNE: Yeah. And so that electability and your appeal to moderates, potentially to Republicans, is a big part of your pitch entering this race. But when we look back on 2016, some Democrats argue, you know, that race was also lost in places like Wisconsin and Michigan among voters who are young people, people of color, black voters. What is your message to them?

BULLOCK: Yeah. And first of all, I'd just push back a little bit. I'm not saying this is my appeal to moderates and Republicans. Like, when we look at what I've done on campaign finance spending, what I've done on investing in education, what I've done by executive order on LGBTQ rights, I think these are progressive, progressive thing. So it's not - this isn't running to the middle. I think I've been sort of in the lane of get things done that matter to people along the way - their lives. Sometimes that's real progressive; sometimes it might be more conservative because I've also had to balance budgets along the way.

And the second part of your question was, so how do you appeal to people of color, as an example? And at the end of the day, it's up to the voters. I would never suggest - you know, I talk about, I had an opportunity in life. I certainly recognize that a lot of people don't have the opportunity that I had, and for some members of our communities, they never have. And would never want to compare, like, either my life to the lives of some people in communities of color or even different disenfranchised or disadvantaged or people of color - different groups.

So the best I can do there is, honestly, show up, listen, learn, take action, recognizing that, like, state like Montana's an example - when I first got elected, I did a health improvement plan for the entire state, when I recognized about 7% of our population's Native American. If you're Native American in Montana, on average you live 20 years less. So here's the specific problem that, for the last 6 1/2 years, I've been trying to address. If you look at, economically, you know, an African American family on average makes about 58% of a white non-Hispanic.

So addressing the unique and challenges from historical that are now to contemporary for each of communities of color in each of the facets, I think, of our country is going to be real important for the next president.

DETROW: We're taping this before the final decision is going to be made. But it will be made by the time that this posts. There's a decent chance you will not be on that first debate stage. You've talked about this. How much are you worried that that will hurt your campaign?

BULLOCK: Well, I can only control the things that I can control. And I got into this, in some respects, some people would say late, even though, you know (laughter), we're still 240 days away from any voter actually exercising his or her preference. I got into it late because I had to get my legislature over. So I noted, like, 100,000 Montanans getting health care depended on that, being able to get a package of bills from missing and murdered indigenous women depended on that. And if I had to make the choice again, I would make that very same choice.

At the end of the day, like, I don't think - while I'm frustrated that I think the rules were essentially changed last week that impacts one person in this field, I'm going to continue to do, like, what I've been doing the last few days - right? - on a rural tour. It's always been, at least in the past - and I get there's excitement to get on and say, let's move on to who's going to beat President Trump. But it's the voters that get to decide this, not any DNC rules or anything like that. Some part - that's where I'll focus.

DETROW: One of the things you talk a lot about talking to voters is that there's a lot of voters in Montana who voted for Donald Trump and voted for you at the same time. A lot of Democrats don't want to think about 2016 anymore, but a lot keep dwelling on it. I'm wondering, in your mind, why do you think voters who voted for maybe President Obama in the past or other Democrats, why do you think voters pulled the lever for Donald Trump in 2016?

BULLOCK: Well, I think - look; the economy, on the one hand, it's booming, but on the other hand, it's not working for a whole lot of people. You know, I note that when I was growing up in the early '70s, 90% of 30-year-olds doing better than their parents at age 30; today it's half. Forty-four percent of Americans not having $400 in their pocket in case of an emergency. And then they look to the political system, Washington, D.C., seems either captured by inaction or big money. I think Donald Trump tapped into something where folks didn't think the economy and the political system was working for them.

Now, I don't think he's made it a bit better for any of those individuals (laughter). But at its core - like in Montana, if I look at the voters that voted for Donald Trump and voted for Bullock, they don't agree with me on every issue or every position. But I think that fundamentally they believe that I'm going to be fighting to try to make their lives better. And I'm actually - recognize, in part, what their lives might be like. So I think that that's part of it, really.

PAYNE: So in this campaign, you've put a huge emphasis on dark money - the idea of corporate dollars making it into our elections at multiple levels. And so when we're looking at the country today, the world today, there are so many issues before us - climate change, health care is top of mind for many voters - why, for you, is campaign finance that thing that you're focusing on?

BULLOCK: Yeah. And not only because it's been more or less what I've been fighting for since I got into public office, but I think it's also one of the most pressing issues to face - all the other issues. I mean, the two that you mention, climate change - you know, I said that the first George Bush, George H.W. Bush said, we'll address the greenhouse effect from the White House effect. Here's a Republican president, 30 years ago, saying that we have to do something about climate change. Fast forward 30 years - most Republicans can't even acknowledge that climate change is impacted by humans. Talk about health care, and yes, we've made strides since the Affordable Care Act, but we can't even negotiate drug prices, even though the federal government's actually the largest purchaser. That is because of what the incentive system and what money has done. Or when Lindsey Graham literally said, we've got to get this tax cut through, the Trump tax cut, that'll not only do $1.6 trillion of debt to our kids, not only ended up a trillion dollars of stock buybacks last year, but he said we have to do that to make our donors happy.

So I don't think, like, if you walk down the street in Sioux City, most people are saying, you know what? The biggest issue out there is the corrosive influence of money in our system. But what they would say is, this economy is not working for me, and Washington, D.C., doesn't seem to give a damn about me.

DETROW: So on campaign finance reform, let's go into the future, however long it is until the general election. You win the nomination, you win the general election, you're the president of the United States, and here's what you're facing - you're facing a Supreme Court that it is very unlikely will change its view on campaign finance reform unless there's a drastic shift on the bench. You've got an FEC that's been paralyzed for years and years. You've got a Congress that there's a chance will still be led on the Senate side by Mitch McConnell, who has spent decades opposing most campaign finance reform bills.

There is a lot in place that would block any sort of reform going forward. What is your plan to get some clear accomplishments on campaign finance and dark money?

BULLOCK: Yeah. And let's even take that a step further, that Mitch McConnell has been part of the core of trying to completely dismantle all regulation in money in politics. You talk about a number of issues. We could talk about maybe what we could do on the court and things like that. So I was - the only state in the country that passed - did by executive order, rule that said, if you want to bid for a state contract, I'm not going to tell you that you can't spend in our elections. But you have to disclose every single dollar that you're either contributing or spending to influence our elections.

Think about what a difference - the federal government contracts with dang near every company in the country. We've got them in federal court right now on the same day that Trump was with Putin in Helsinki. Secretary of treasury said, well, we're getting rid of this little rule that requires 501(c)(4), these nonprofits that are spending a lot of their money in political activities, that they no longer even have to collect the names of their major donors. This rule's been around since Richard Nixon (laughter). He's not - wasn't the model of transparency. So now, really, a Russian could give to one of these or the NRA; nobody would even know.

You know, we've also had, I mean, the lawyer that created the Citizens United case, this guy out of Indiana - his name's Jim Bopp. And the Bopp law firm has said that their whole effort is to dismantle every single bit of regulation over our elections. So that's any transparency and sunshine. That's any limitations on contributions. That's any limitations on spending. I think the next solicitor general, the next Justice Department should be equally vigilant and say, where are those cases out there - not just Washington, D.C., but around the country - that we could actually, the U.S. Department of Justice, could take a role in trying to bring up to preserve this system?

Because we're all - you know, I say that - you know, and it's true, that at least there's one day every couple of years where we're all equal, and that's on Election Day. And what we're having more and more is people don't even think it's worth voting, from the perspective that their vote doesn't matter.

PAYNE: And so switching gears to climate change. You've spoken to the importance of taking quick action on climate change. In Montana, you all have made advances in solar energy, wind energy. But on the other hand, President Obama's climate change policy was deeply unpopular in your part of the world. You yourself had concerns, including resisting some of his efforts to slow the expansion of coal leases on public lands. How do you make that argument to coal states that there's no role for coal in our future, if the United States and the rest of the world is going to meet these goals?

BULLOCK: Well, I think that, you know, there's often two ways to become a scientist. One is to actually get your Ph.D. and then the other is to run for office.

(LAUGHTER)

BULLOCK: You know? I mean, like, everybody becomes a scientist immediately. And so I think we have to turn around and say, what's achievable, what's attainable and what do we do along the way? So what's necessary, right? The IPCC says we've got to be, not just in America but in the world, net zero, no emissions by 2050. I think we could do it a lot sooner than 2050 - 2040 or even before. They've also said - you know, even markets are making coal not as profitable or unprofitable. But they've also said, you're not going to stop that overnight. You are going to continue burning coal for at least the short term.

So what we need to do during that time is do everything we can to mitigate those impacts. And that's why, you know, we've doubled our wind. We've quadrupled our solar. But I've also vetoed any efforts to gut renewable portfolio standards - are making it harder to cite wind and solar. But I think there's a message along that way, too, that we've got to be cognizant of. As communities go through this transition, not just the Democratic Party, but all of us have an obligation to turn around and say, we're going to help those communities through that transition.

You know, I think that there are time - that workers that turn around and say, I've spent my whole life powering this country, and all of a sudden, parts of the Democratic Party look at me like there's something wrong with me or that I'm doing something wrong. So I think, from a government standpoint, we have every obligation and responsibility to say, not just worker training, but what are you going to do to provide these multiple acts in these areas?

DETROW: OK, we're going to take a quick break. Back soon with more from our interview with Montana Governor Steve Bullock, including what he can't let go.

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DETROW: And we're back. Over the next few months, the NPR POLITICS PODCAST, New Hampshire Public Radio and Iowa Public Radio are going to be interviewing a lot of the presidential candidates and bringing you those conversations. This is the fifth interview in the series. Here's more from Montana Governor Steve Bullock.

You got a question about gun control, about school shootings, and as part of your answer, you talked about how, you know, you like to go hunting with your son, and you've talked about teaching your son kind of the values and rules and approach of hunting. But you've also written about the fact that this is a personal issue for you, that your nephew was killed in a school shooting. How does that affect how you think about gun policy and how you think about addressing school shootings?

BULLOCK: Well, it impacts the way I think in a lot of ways in public policy. I mean, it was - you know, I was pulled out of my last day of class in law school. I was living in New York City and having a 10-year-old come and shoot an 11-year-old. And the 10-year-old at the time said, no one loves me. Like, that was his answer.

So I've done a lot of work on trying to make sure that - and that was both as attorney general and as governor - that do everything I can to both provide a social services and support system and make sure that kids are enriched, not diminished, no matter what family you're born into or where you come from. It has impacted the way I parent. And it's also impacted certainly the way I think about not just school safety and gun safety, but how we are collectively raising our kids.

DETROW: It's very hard to be a parent, which I've learned a lot over the last year in my own life. But...

BULLOCK: How old are your - yeah.

DETROW: 14-months-old. It's a very fun time.

BULLOCK: Yeah.

DETROW: Must be even harder to be a parent as a governor of a state, and even harder as a presidential candidate. And I'm asking because you do talk about your family and your kids a lot on the campaign trail, and I've also heard you talk about growing up with a single parent household and not really interacting with your dad that much growing up. And I'm wondering how did that experience shape the way that you approach parenting in a public role?

BULLOCK: Yeah, yeah. My parents divorced in grade school - well, it's actually - and that's what got me back to Montana, oddly enough, is my father ended up with stage 4 lung cancer. So I was a couple of years out of law school, had a couple hundred thousand dollars - well, $170,000 of loans, so I was going to stay in New York, pay it off and then move home. But when he got ill, I decided to move home and help take care of him.

I think how both me growing up and then marrying a wonderful woman - we'll call her Lisa because that's her name - right? - my wife. It shaped the way I parent because every time before an election, every night - you know, and there's only been a few of them - but before we go to bed, I ask the kids, what's my most important job? And they say, being our father. And I don't think it's some rote memorization, right? Like, I think that they actually recognize that to me that is the most important thing that I could do. And if I can give them that much more that - than I was given or other people are given, it shapes my perspective of how I view not just my priorities in office, but how I view the world. And it's, like, not one - you know, it's funny because with my oldest daughter, who's a junior, we'd sat down before I left on this trip because she wants to come out and see some of this. And it was my wife - Caroline and I sort of said, let's pick some weeks where you can do it. And then just between her basketball camps and everything, we were in August.

(LAUGHTER)

DETROW: I don't have time for your presidential campaign; I've got priorities.

BULLOCK: Oh, literally. So - well, it's funny because I was announcing at the same high school that my wife and I went to, the same one that my daughter's at. And the campaign team was like, well, what do you mean you can't announce until 1:30 in the afternoon? And I'm like, well, it's AP testing week (laughter). So I can't announce - you know, I can't pull my daughter out of class. So we sort of scheduled the launch of the whole presidential campaign around my daughter's class schedule.

So it's a balance, right? Anything that anybody does professionally is a balance. But try to do my best at being at 100% in all of the roles - that's being a governor, being a presidential candidate, being a spouse and being a father.

PAYNE: And so when was the last time that you really changed your mind on something, really profoundly changed your position? And vetoing a bill doesn't count.

(LAUGHTER)

PAYNE: Or voting for a bill you didn't fully support - doesn't count

BULLOCK: Yeah. You know, I think probably the most recent was an assault weapons ban. And because even when I had laid out, here some things that we could do, it didn't include assault weapons ban. And certainly, part of it is all the times I've had to lower flags. But we had a March for Our Lives in Helena, and I was asked to speak. And I'm like, I'm not going to speak. And instead, I went. I went with my kids. And listening to the kids - and they were all high school students speaking - that's one where I finally made the transition that, yeah, we should ban these, like other sporting goods and others.

You know, there's a great discussion - I think that groups like the NRA have been really, really good at trying to divide us by fears, that the ideas that, well, Democrats want to take everybody's guns away. And that's not true. That is not true. And I think one of the - I've never owned a AR-15; I never would. I think one of the things is - I was processing that through is that some folks would want to use that - them Democrats just want to take everyone's guns away.

But, you know, I think I've lowered - and I mean, the way flag-lowering works is that if the president asks a governor to lower flags, you have the choice whether or not to do it. And then at the state level, you can do it for other things. But counting like Veterans Day and everything else, you know, a fourth of the times I've been asked to lower the flags have been for mass shootings, five or six since Parkland alone. And I'm damn tired of lowering flags.

DETROW: We got kind of deeply philosophical here for a while. But I'm going to...

BULLOCK: Yeah.

DETROW: ...End it on a lighter note. We end the show each week talking about one thing we just can't let go of outside of the political world. What is that for you right now?

BULLOCK: So probably what I can't let go of outside the political world - it was Saturday. I was in Helena. It's called the Governor's Cup. It's this big race. People from all around the state. And actually, we had 40 different states - representatives from 40 different states, thousands of people show up. And both my 12-year-old and my 14-year-old beat me in the 5K.

DETROW: Oh, man.

(LAUGHTER)

BULLOCK: You know, I can only - here's how I'll try to salvage that one, is that I ran the half marathon, and what I've done since they were little is I'd run the half, then I'd run with them and try to just push them along and say, come on, kids.

DETROW: Yeah.

BULLOCK: And run a little bit further. So I got done with the half. And then it's time for the 5K, and they just left me in the dust.

(LAUGHTER)

BULLOCK: And that has never happened since they were born. So that's something I just can't let go of.

DETROW: Well, I feel like if I had just run a half marathon and then did another race, everyone would be beating me.

(LAUGHTER)

DETROW: So if you beat anybody else in that situation, then it's probably a good testament. Well, Governor Bullock, thank you for coming on the NPR POLITICS PODCAST.

BULLOCK: Thanks, Scott. Thanks, Kate.

PAYNE: Thanks so much.

DETROW: That's one of the many conversations we'll be having with the Democrats running for president. We also want to let you know about Caucus Land. It's a new podcast produced by Iowa Public Radio. Kate Payne and Clay Masters will give you an in-depth look at how people in Iowa shape the national political conversation. You can find more at caucusland.com. The NPR POLITICS PODCAST will be back in your feed as soon as there's news to talk about. Thanks to Kate Payne and everyone else at Iowa Public Radio. I'm Scott Detrow. Thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.

(SOUNDBITE OF THE BIGTOP ORCHESTRA'S "TEETER BOARD: FOLIES BERGERE (MARCH AND TWO-STEP)")