美国国家公共电台 NPR 众议院议长佩洛西要求起草弹劾条款 特朗普回应称"那就快点吧"（在线收听）

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi made it official today. She is asking committee chairmen to draft articles of impeachment against President Trump.

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NANCY PELOSI: The president leaves us no choice but to act because he is trying to corrupt, once again, the election for his own benefit.

CHANG: President Trump immediately turned around and criticized Pelosi, but he is thinking ahead, too — to what should happen if the House votes for impeachment and the Senate holds a trial. To talk about all of this, I'm joined now in the studio by NPR congressional reporter Claudia Grisales and NPR national political correspondent Mara Liasson.

Hello to both of you.

CLAUDIA GRISALES, BYLINE: Hi there.

MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Happy to be here.

CHANG: All right. Claudia, let's just start with Pelosi's announcement. How did she explain her decision to now move ahead on impeachment right after the first Judiciary Committee hearing?

GRISALES: Yes. She said that there was this aha moment after the whistleblower came forward with this report of grave concern involving a White House pressure campaign with Ukraine. She said the facts uncovered in this investigation of the president changed everything, including public polling, which shifted from a minority of the country supporting this move to now just about half the country. She also said the president gave her and other Democrats no choice but to move forward or this behavior could continue. And she also defended the speed of drafting the articles of impeachment. Now, she noted, it's been more than two years since the Mueller investigation began and started many of the same questions of President Trump drawing foreign interference into our elections.

CHANG: I also know there was sort of this dramatic moment that came up during Pelosi's press conference. She got a question she didn't quite like. Can you tell us a little more about that moment?

GRISALES: Yes. So she was walking away from the podium at that moment, and a reporter for Sinclair Broadcast Group — it's a conservative network of television stations...

CHANG: Right.

GRISALES: ...Yelled out a question to her, asked her if she hated the president. She stopped. She turned to face Rosen and pointed at him and said that she didn't agree with kind of the tone of his question. And we have tape of when she returned to the podium to respond further. Let's take a listen.

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PELOSI: I don't hate anyone. I was raised in a way that is full — a heart full of love. I pray for the president all the time. So don't mess with me when it comes to words like that.

CHANG: Wow.

LIASSON: That's pretty unusual for Nancy Pelosi. She often gets questions as she's leaving the stage, but she rarely comes back to the podium to answer them.

CHANG: Right.

LIASSON: Don't mess with me. That was the — her bite of the day. But it did capture the gravity of the moment. She's trying to communicate that this has nothing to do with personal feelings or politics. It's about protecting the constitution. And we do know that she resisted impeachment for many, many months...

CHANG: Right.

LIASSON: ...Until the whistleblower report came out.

CHANG: Until the whole Ukraine affair...

LIASSON: Right.

CHANG: ...Came to surface. So when reporters asked President Trump today about the House's decision to move ahead on impeachment, he said this.

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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: It's a hoax. It's a hoax. It's a big, fat hoax.

CHANG: Which sounds kind of familiar, right, Mara? I mean, what more has the president said about Pelosi's announcement today?

LIASSON: Well, the president has been tweeting a lot. He said Pelosi had, quote, "a nervous fit." He talked about the do-nothing radical left Democrats who are going to impeach him over nothing. He did say, if you're going to impeach me, do it now fast so we can have a fair trial in the Senate. So it sounds like he's really looking forward to the House proceedings like a root canal, but he's seeing a more friendlier venue...

GRISALES: Right, in the Republican-controlled Senate.

LIASSON: ...In the future on the other side of the Capitol, when he can go to the Republican-controlled Senate.

CHANG: All right, so let's turn to what we think these articles of impeachment might look like. Claudia, have you heard any specifics yet on what shape these articles might take?

GRISALES: So we have heard members touch on some possible articles of impeachment, but we're not clear yet what they're going to look like. Democrats such as House Intelligence Chairman Adam Schiff laid out the potential for bribery or obstruction to be part of those articles, but how broad these articles will be remains to be seen. It could focus just on Ukraine, or it could expand and include Mueller's Russia investigation. There's some Democrats arguing to keep this narrowly focused on Ukraine, but there's others that might argue they want a broader list of articles, giving them an opportunity to vote against some of these and get some political cover.

CHANG: OK, so let's assume Democrats do draft these articles. The House passes those articles, then everything bounces over to the Senate side. The Senate holds a trial. Mara, can you just give us an idea of — how is the White House preparing for that phase?

LIASSON: Well, you just heard Donald Trump tweet he wants a fast trial. White House officials have said that they want witnesses on the floor, live witnesses. The president also tweeted today. He said he wanted, quote, "Schiff, the Bidens, Pelosi and many more" to testify. Now, it's unclear whether that would happen and, even if it did, if it would be a case of be careful what you wish for. Do you really want to give Joe Biden that kind of a platform? But nobody really knows what the political endgame is here. The rules for the Senate trial have not been worked out yet between Majority Leader McConnell and Democratic Leader Schumer, and the only thing that people seem certain about is there will not be 67 votes to remove him from office.

CHANG: Right.

LIASSON: That would mean 20 Republicans would have to flip.

CHANG: So more immediately, President Trump faces a Friday deadline to decide whether he will be sending a legal team to participate in next Monday's House Judiciary Committee hearing. Do you get any sense of what the White House is going to do?

LIASSON: Well, you know, they didn't — they decided not to participate in the Wednesday hearing, although they left the door open to participating in future hearings. There is no indication that they will participate on Monday. It seems as if they don't see any value in participating in the House proceedings. They are really focused on the Senate.

CHANG: That's NPR's Mara Liasson and Claudia Grisales.

Thanks to both of you.

LIASSON: Thank you.

GRISALES: Thank you.

众议院议长南希·佩洛西今天发表正式声明。她将要求委员会主席起草弹劾特朗普总统的条款。

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南希·佩洛西：总统让我们别无选择，只能采取行动，因为他又一次试图为一己之利而破坏选举。

张：特朗普总统立即指责了佩洛西，至于众议院举行弹劾投票和参议院进行审判后会发生什么情况，总统也在进行长远考虑。现在我们请到了NPR新闻驻国会记者克劳迪娅·格里塞尔斯和国家政治记者玛拉·利亚森做客演播室，详细了解这些情况。

欢迎二位。

克劳迪娅·格里塞尔斯连线：你好。

玛拉·利亚森连线：很高兴做客节目。

张：好。克劳迪娅，我们先来谈谈佩洛西的声明。她对在众议院司法委员会首场公开听证会后马上推进弹劾进程的决定有何解释？

格里塞尔斯：好。她说举报人的挺身而出就是顿悟时刻，举报信中对白宫向乌克兰施压一事提出了重大关切。她说，针对总统的这项调查所揭示的事实改变了一切，其中包括民意调查，此前只有少数人支持这一举动，而现在有大约一半民众持支持态度。她表示，总统令她和其他民主党人别无选择，只能推进弹劾或者说这一举动可以继续。她还为起草弹劾条款的速度进行了辩护。现在她指出，两年多以前，穆勒调查启动，涉及特朗普总统让外国势力干预本国大选的许多相同问题浮出水面。

张：我还了解到，佩洛西举行记者会期间出现了戏剧性时刻。她被问到了一个她不太喜欢的问题。你能详细介绍一下吗？

格里塞尔斯：对。当时她已经离开讲台，一名来自辛克莱广播集团的记者——这是一家保守的电视网络……

张：好。

格里塞尔斯：一名记者大喊着向她问了个问题，记者问她是否恨总统。佩洛西停下了脚步。她转身面向罗森，指着他说自己不同意他问问题的语气。我们录下了她回到讲台进一步回应的情况。下面我们来听一下。

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佩洛西：我不恨任何人。我是以一颗充满爱的心长大的。我还一直为总统祈祷。所以别说这种话，别惹我。

张：哇哦。

利亚森：这对南希·佩洛西来说是非常不同寻常的情况。她经常在离开讲台时被记者追问，但她很少返回讲话回答问题。

张：没错。

利亚森：别惹我。这是她一天的怒气。但这的确说明了这一时刻的重要性。她正在试图表明这与个人感情或政治没有任何关系。而是与保护宪法有关。我们知道，她数个月以来一直在抵制弹劾。

张：对。

利亚森：直到举报人的举报信出现。

张：直到整个乌克兰问题……

利亚森：没错。

张：浮出水面。当记者今天就众议院推进弹劾进程的决定询问特朗普总统时，他是这样回答的。

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唐纳德·特朗普总统：这是骗局。是骗局。是天大的骗局。

张：这听起来非常熟悉，对吧，玛拉？总统对佩洛西今天发表的声明还有何回应？

利亚森：总统一直在发推。他称佩洛西“紧张地大发雷霆”。他说，一事无成、激进左翼的民主党人刚刚宣布他们将试图弹劾我，而我没做错任何事。他此前曾在推特上写道，如果你们要弹劾我，现在就做，快点儿，这样我们就能在参议院得到公正审判。听起来他非常期待像根管治疗的众议院程序，但他希望在一个更友好的场所……

格里塞尔斯：对，在共和党控制的参议院。

利亚森：未来在国会山另一侧进行听证时，他可能会前往共和党控制的参议院。

张：好，下面我们来谈谈弹劾条款可能涵盖的内容。克劳迪娅，你有没有了解到这些条款的具体信息？

格里塞尔斯：我们了解到，议员讨论了一些可能的弹劾条款，但我们并不清楚条款的具体内容。包括众议院情报委员会主席亚当·席夫在内的民主党人指出，条款可能包括受贿或妨碍司法公正，但条款的范围还有待观察。弹劾条款可能只聚焦乌克兰，也可能扩大范围，涵盖穆勒进行的通俄门调查。部分民主党人认为条款应只限制在乌克兰问题上，但其他民主党人则表示，他们想要范围更广的弹劾条款，以使他们获得机会，得以投票反对一些问题并将某些政治问题涵盖其中。

张：好，假设民主党人起草了弹劾条款。众议院通过了这些条款，那所有问题都会交到参议院手里。参议院要举行审判。玛拉，你能说明一下，白宫会如何为这一阶段做准备吗？

利亚森：你刚听到唐纳德·特朗普发推称，他希望尽快进行审判。白宫官员曾表示，他们希望证人亲自到国会山作证。总统今天也发了推特。他写道，他希望“席夫、拜登一家、佩洛西以及更多的人”作证。现在并不清楚这是否会发生，即使他们作证，这是否会成为“小心你许的愿”事件？你真的希望让乔·拜登获得这样的平台吗？但没有人确切知道政治后果。多数党领袖麦康奈尔和民主党领袖舒默还未制定参议院审判规定，人们唯一可以确定的事情是，民主党在参院得不到罢黜特朗普所需的67票。

张：对。

利亚森：因为这需要20名共和党反水。

张：更迫切的问题是，特朗普总统面临着一个最后期限，他要在星期五之前决定是否派法律团队参加下周一举行的众议院司法委员会听证会。你知不知道白宫准备怎么做？

利亚森：你知道，他们此前决定不参加周三举行的听证会，不过他们为参加未来的听证会留下了余地。目前没有迹象表明他们将参加周一的听证会。看起来他们认为出席众议院听证会没有任何价值。他们将全部精力都放在参议院。

张：以上是NPR新闻的玛拉·利亚森和克劳迪娅·格里塞尔斯带来的报道。

谢谢二位。

利亚森：谢谢。

格里塞尔斯：谢谢。