PBS高端访谈:大火后又遭遇特大洪水（在线收听）

JUDY WOODRUFF: Firefighters in Australia are finally getting some help this week from nature, in the form of rain and thunderstorms. But many fires are still burning. Millions of acres have been lost, adding up to a combined area as large as the state of Virginia. And the brushfires have done tremendous damage to Australian ecosystem and to wildlife. Our science correspondent, Miles O'Brien, is there for us, as well as for the weather app MyRadar. Miles joins us now from the southeastern part of the country. He's in Sarsfield, Australia. Miles, hello to you. First of all, just bring us up to date. What is the latest on the situation there?

MILES O'BRIEN: Well, Judy, the weather is a little bit better here. There's been a little bit of rain. Humidity is a little higher. The temperatures have fallen. They have had just record heat here. So there is a bit of a respite. But we're now 55 days into this epic fire season. It's by no means over. There are 17 fires still uncontained in the state of Victoria, where I'm standing, just to the north in New South Wales, another 30 fires. And that's two sections of Southeast Australia. There are fires all across this country. It has damaged and destroyed 25 million acres. Just look at the scene here, Judy. It's almost like I'm standing at the bottom of a barbecue at the end of a night, yes, all the chroma kind of removed. It's almost a moonscape. Multiply that over the scope of this, at 24 million acres, and you get just a slight idea of how epic this fire season has been already.

JUDY WOODRUFF: It just looks like a wasteland of ash.Miles, we have been hearing so much about the loss of not just human life, I guess 28 or 29 people have died, but the loss of wildlife in Australia, where there are so many precious animals and others. What have you learned about that?

MILES O'BRIEN: Well, that's an important point. Australia, being a continent and island, is home to many species that are nowhere else on the planet, and many of those species are really facing an onslaught. We have seen just those gut-wrenching pictures of some of these marsupials. Koalas in particular are very vulnerable in this case. They're very slow-moving. They're very finicky eaters. When a fire comes to the forest, what's their natural instinct to do? They climb up a tree. That's not a good place to be. By some estimates, 30 percent of the koala population in this country may have already been killed. One scientist in Sydney ventured to guess that there might have been a billion animals killed already. That's a difficult number to verify, obviously, and this is a very dynamic situation. But the scientists I have talked to remind us that you have to remember what we're dealing with right now is just the beginning. After all, these animals have to come back to this. Their home, their food, the food system, the ecosystem, the food chain has all been disrupted. And so the deaths that are, they're dealing with now, the injuries they're dealing with now, they fear, may be just the beginning.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Miles, you were telling us you have also been talking to the scientists who are experts in climate change, looking at what has happened to Australia.

MILES O'BRIEN: Yes, it's a complicated picture. It's never simple, but climate change is a big player in all of this. There are some significant owns currents. It's sort of like El Nino, La Nina. They call it the Indian Dipole, which has exacerbated drought conditions in Australia. Another factor, there was some warm weather over Antarctica which has changed the wind patterns, causing it to be much windier this year. But at the base of it all is climate change. As the temperatures rise, these forests just dry out. The dries get dryer, the wets get wetter. This is compelling evidence that climate change is at root here. And it factors in, of course, Judy, to a political debate which rages on here, as well as in the United States.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And you were also telling us you have been looking at how public opinion may have been shifting. You have been talking to some folks who've been advocating for more public awareness.

MILES O'BRIEN: Yes, it's...this is a country which is a huge fossil fuel exporter, coal and oil. It's the number three exporter of coal and oil in the world, behind Russia and Saudi Arabia. So when you talk about climate change, it immediately gets into a conversation about jobs and the economy. And so this is a country where the political leadership, the prime minister has been a climate denier, moving into climate skepticism.

But through all of this, given the tremendous impact that all of this has had, the emotional impact and the devastating losses, Mr. Morrison is now saying his views are evolving. And that is a significant moment for Australian politics. Much of the news here is dominated by the News Corporation, run by Rupert Murdoch, strictly, almost strictly anti-climate change views, climate denial views, but even that is changing. Some of the tabloids are starting to address this issue. And, of course, very publicly just the other day, the son of Rupert Murdoch, James Murdoch, openly split with his family and said that the News Corporation should be addressing this issue more directly. On top of all of this, what is troubling, Judy, is, this is really just the beginning of the traditional fire season here. February and March are oftentimes where the real fires begin.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Miles O'Brien, reporting from Victoria state in Australia, so hard to believe that, until you see it up close like this. Thank you, Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN: You're welcome, Judy.

朱迪·伍德拉夫：澳大利亚消防战士们本周终于获得大自然的帮助——不仅下雨了，还有雷雨。虽然如此，大火依然在燃烧。数百万公顷的土地未能幸免于难，被波及的区域有弗吉尼亚州那么大。山林火灾给澳大利亚生态系统和野生动物都造成了巨大的损害。我台科学栏记者迈尔斯·布莱恩已经前往现场，也为MyRadar应用程序带去了最新情况。迈尔斯现在在美国东南部，具体来说萨斯菲尔德。嗨，迈尔斯。首先，给我们来点儿最新资讯吧。现在你那边是什么情况？

迈尔斯·布莱恩：这边的天气好多了，还下着点小雨。湿度有略微提升，温度也有所下降。他们刚刚记录了这里的热度。所以，现在的情况是有所缓解了。但这里进入火季已经有55天了，而且还没有结束的势头。维多利亚州还有17场大火尚未扑灭。而距离我现在所在地北部的新南威尔士州，还有大概30场大火尚未扑灭。是澳大利亚东南部的2块区域。所以说，火势在全国范围内依然没有扑灭。大火导致2500万公顷的土地遭到毁坏。朱迪，大家可以看下这里的画面。我现在站立的地方就像是烤了一夜的肉之后的感觉，任何色泽都没有了，感觉就像月球表面一样。在这片区域外的地方，还有2400万公顷的土地受到波及，而这也只是这场大火季的冰山一角而已。

朱迪·伍德拉夫：这里就像一片荒芜之地。迈尔斯，我们听到了太多消失的消息，不仅是人的消失——我想大概有二十八九人已经死亡——而且还有野生动物消失的消息，有很多珍贵物种消失。你从搞这些消息能了解到什么呢？

迈尔斯·布莱恩：这是很关键的一点。澳大利亚是一片大陆也是一个岛屿，这里有很多独一无二的物种，而现在，这些物种都面临灭绝的风险。我们看到了一些有袋动物让人心痛的画面，尤其是不堪一击的考拉。考拉移速很慢，对饮食很讲究。而森林发大火之后，考拉的本能是什么呢？就是爬上树，因为数上可以躲躲火势。据估测，30%的考拉可能已经死亡。悉尼的一位科学家大胆猜测：可能有10亿只动物已经死亡。这个数字很难确认，但是让人觉得很可怕。但我跟一些科学家聊过，这些科学家提醒我们说：我们必须要铭记现在应对的情况只是个开头而已。毕竟，这些动物也总要面对现实。这些动物的家园、食物、食物体系、生态系统、食物链都遭到了破坏。而且他们担心现在要应对的死伤数字可能也只是个开头而已。

朱迪·伍德拉夫：迈尔斯，你刚才说你跟一些科学家有过交谈，而且这些科学家都是气候领域的专家，他们有在关注澳大利亚发生的一切。

迈尔斯·布莱恩：是的，目前情况很复杂。情况其实一直都很复杂，但气候变化在其中扮演了重要的角色。有一些影响很大的洋流，有点像厄尔尼诺、拉尼娜现象。他们称它为印度洋偶极子。印度洋偶极子导致澳大利亚旱灾恶化。还有一个因素是：南极洲上空天气较暖，改变了风场，所以今年的风更大了。但根本原因还是气候变化。随着温度的升高，森林会变得干燥。干的地方越来越干，湿的地方越来越湿。这个证据让人无法不直视一个事实——气候变化发挥着根本性的作用。朱迪，这当然也涉及到美国的一场政治辩论。

朱迪·伍德拉夫：你之前也提到你一直在关注民意的变化。你跟一些人有聊到支持公众加强意识的事儿。

迈尔斯：是的，这个事儿就是——这个国家一直是化石燃料出口的大国，包括煤炭和石油。这里是世界上煤炭和石油的第三出口大国，仅次于俄罗斯和沙特。所以，要谈气候，一定会涉及到就业率和经济。但这个国家的领导人，也就是总理，他对气候持否定的态度，他是气候怀疑论者。但在经历了这些巨大的影响和损失之后，莫里森现在说他的观点有了变化。这对澳大利亚政坛来说是重要的时刻。澳大利亚的新闻几乎由新闻集团把控，该集团严格来说由鲁伯特·默多克运营。而一直以来，新闻集团报道的都是反对气候变化的观点和否认气候变化的观点，但现在，这一点也发生了变化。有一些小报也开始报道这个问题。而且，几天前，鲁伯特·默多克之子詹姆斯·默多克公开与家族决裂。他表示，新闻集团应该更加直接地解决这个问题。朱迪，最重要而且又让人心忧的是：现在只是传统火季的开头而已。2月和3月通常是火季的真正季节。

朱迪·伍德拉夫：让我们感谢迈尔斯从维多利亚州发回的报道，很难相信你能如此近距离地了解这些信息。谢谢你，迈尔斯。

迈尔斯·布莱恩：客气啦，朱迪。