PBS高端访谈:听听演员们说变老问题（在线收听）

AMNA NAWAZ: Now to a new film opening soon that features some legends of the screen. Jeffrey Brown got a preview earlier this month at the Toronto International Film Festival.

ROBERT REDFORD, Actor: Excuse me. I would like to open up an account.

ACTOR: What type of account do you have in mind?

ROBERT REDFORD: This kind.

JEFFREY BROWN: He's a charming, well-dressed and friendly old guy who happens to be a bank robber.

ACTOR: He was also sort of a gentleman.

ACTOR: He was very polite.

ACTRESS: He seemed like a nice enough fellow.

JEFFREY BROWN: Robert Redford, himself age 82, is Forrest Tucker, head of what becomes dubbed the Over the Hill Gang. Was that just irresistible to you, to take on this story?

ROBERT REDFORD: Yes, because I'm over the hill.

JEFFREY BROWN: That was it?

ROBERT REDFORD: I was very attracted to the idea that a guy who robbed banks, somebody said, do you rob banks to make a living? He said, no, I rob banks to have a living. And I always liked that idea. He just loved, he just loved his life.

JEFFREY BROWN: The new film The Old Man; the Gun is directed by David Lowery and features Casey Affleck as a small-time detective eager to nab the elusive bank robber.

CASEY AFFLECK, Actor: Yes, I won't lie. I would love to slap cuffs on him myself.

JEFFREY BROWN: It's based on a true story first told by author David Grann in The New Yorker magazine.

SISSY SPACEK, Actress: I don't believe a word you say.

JEFFREY BROWN: Also on board, another acting great, Sissy Spacek.

SISSY SPACEK: I'm the only thing in it that's not true.

JEFFREY BROWN: Spacek is, of course, known for numerous performances over the years, including Carrie in 1976 and her 1981 Oscar-winning role as Loretta Lynn in Coal Miner's Daughter.

ROBERT REDFORD: Excuse me. Need some help?

JEFFREY BROWN: Now 68, she plays Jewel, who has recently lost her husband, meets Redford's Forrest Tucker by accident, and isn't quite sure what to make of him.

SISSY SPACEK: The main thing I needed to figure out was, did I believe him the first time he told me he robbed banks? Prove it.

ROBERT REDFORD: Prove it?

SISSY SPACEK: Yes.

ROBERT REDFORD: You want me to prove it?

SISSY SPACEK: Yes. I just thought that was a line. I just thought he was trying to be cute and funny, which he was being cute and funny.

JEFFREY BROWN: Yes, but it's kind of a weird pickup line. But he's a charmer.

SISSY SPACEK: But it worked.

JEFFREY BROWN: There's also in this film a lot, especially in your character, the idea about getting away with something, getting away with it.

ROBERT REDFORD: That's always been appealing to me.

JEFFREY BROWN: Why is it appealing?

ROBERT REDFORD: It's just fun to try to get away with something. I think it's just a fun concept, yes, particularly if it doesn't get dark or harsh. The whole idea of this film was, whatever these characters were doing, they had fun. And that, I like that idea, particularly in these dark times that we're living in. We're living in such dark times. And one of the other appealing parts of this film was that it's a film that, during these dark times, brings a nice light into something. It's very upbeat. And I think that's pretty healthy right now.

JEFFREY BROWN: This movie is a real meditation on aging, is it not? I mean, both of your characters, how to age gracefully, what to do as you age, was that...

ROBERT REDFORD: I don't spend a lot of time thinking about that.

JEFFREY BROWN: You don't?

ROBERT REDFORD: No, no, not about aging.

ROBERT REDFORD: Therefore, whether I'm graceful or not, I just don't want to think about it.

JEFFREY BROWN: But when you have to play a character?

ROBERT REDFORD: I think the character doesn't think about it either. He just goes about what he loves doing.

JEFFREY BROWN: Do you think about it?

SISSY SPACEK: I'm a woman. Of course I think about it.

JEFFREY BROWN: Yes.

SISSY SPACEK: It's a bummer.

SISSY SPACEK: No, actually, actually, I think this is just one of my favorite times of my life. We get respect. It's amazing.

ROBERT REDFORD: Isn't that nice?

SISSY SPACEK: It's so nice. Getting old is not all, it's not so bad.

JEFFREY BROWN: In fact, the two have never before acted together.

ROBERT REDFORD: You know what I do when the door closes? I jump out the window.

JEFFREY BROWN: But on screen, under director David Lowery, they have an easygoing, natural chemistry and, in person with us, egg each other on.

SISSY SPACEK: We had so much fun when we were doing that scene in the diner. Tell me what that is then.

ROBERT REDFORD: My style?

SISSY SPACEK: Yes.

ROBERT REDFORD: OK, well, let's take this place. This place is not my style.

SISSY SPACEK: The first day we worked on it, we did it little tiny pieces. And it was just kind of driving us crazy.

ROBERT REDFORD: Yes.

SISSY SPACEK: The next day, we came back to that. And we finally said, David, can we do it all in one?

ROBERT REDFORD: All in one, yes.

JEFFREY BROWN: Oh, yes?

SISSY SPACEK: And then, when we did it all in one, it just went to new places.

ROBERT REDFORD: Yes.

SISSY SPACEK: Don't you think? It was just...

ROBERT REDFORD: Oh, absolutely, yes. It's got to feel right. The timing has to feel right. And you could improvise while you were doing it, as long as you stayed within the context of the characters in the story.

JEFFREY BROWN: Yes. Is acting easier, harder having done it so long, having done so many...

ROBERT REDFORD: Well, it's always been hard, but you want to make it look easy. I mean, I think that's the objective. You want to make it look easy.

SISSY SPACEK: And, sometimes, you just get swept away. And I think it's like when the scene plays you. And then, when you finish, they go, OK, let's do that again. Do the same thing. I think, what happened? Where I am?

ROBERT REDFORD: I don't know what to do.

SISSY SPACEK: You live for those moments where ,where you're swept away, and you lose yourself in the moment and in the scene.

ROBERT REDFORD: Yes. Along that line, being in the moment is part of what being an actor is, to be in the moment. If you're really in the moment, that means things are going to be just loose enough for you to improvise if you have to, if you're in the moment, as long as the moment's real.

ROBERT REDFORD: You just walk in real calm.

JEFFREY BROWN: In The Old Man the Gun, Robert Redford, the actor, plays a man who just can't stop doing the one thing that gives him life, even if it is something that lands him in jail every so often. But Redford the man has announced this will be his final role. He's going to stop. We will have that part of the conversation in our next report. For now, I'm Jeffrey Brown from the Toronto International Film Festival.

阿姆纳·纳瓦兹：接下来，我们介绍一部即将发布的新电影，这部电影与荧幕上的一些传奇故事有关。本月初，杰弗里·布朗在多伦多国际电影节上进行了首映。

罗伯特·雷德福，男演员：您好，我想开户。

男演员：您想开什么户。

罗伯特·雷德福：这种户。

杰弗里·布朗：他很有魅力，西装革履，年龄虽然大了，但为人和善，是个银行抢劫犯。

男演员：但同时也很绅士。

男演员：为人彬彬有礼。

女演员：听起来，他像是个很好的人。

杰弗里·布朗：罗伯特·雷德福82岁的时候饰演了弗罗斯特·塔克，是翻阅山丘帮的老大。这种故事是不是会让人饶有兴致？

罗伯特·雷德福：是的，因为我越过了山丘。

杰弗里·布朗：故事就结束了？

罗伯特·雷德福：我很喜欢这个人抢银行的初衷。有人问过他，你抢银行是为了营生吗？他说，不，我是为了找到生活的气息。我一直很喜欢他的说法。他非常非常热爱自己的生命。

杰弗里·布朗：新电影《老人和枪》是由大卫·洛韦里执导的电影。电影里卡西·阿弗莱克是个三流侦探，一心想拿到这个神出鬼没的银行劫匪的一手消息。

卡西·阿弗莱克，男演员：是的，我不会说谎的。

杰弗里·布朗：这是根据作家戴维·古兰在《纽约客》杂志的真实故事改编的。

西西·史派克，女演员：你说的话，我一个字都不信。

杰弗里·布朗：同样参演的还有影坛巨星西西·史派克。

西西·史派克：这里面唯一不真实的就是我。

杰弗里·布朗：这些年来，史派克一直活跃在荧屏前，包括1976年出演的《魔女嘉莉》和1981年让她赢得奥斯卡奖的影片《矿工的女儿》，她在其中饰演洛雷塔·林恩。

罗伯特·雷德福：打扰一下，请问您需要帮助吗？

杰弗里·布朗：68岁的她饰演了朱厄尔，一个刚刚丧夫的女人。她邂逅了雷德福饰演的弗罗斯特·塔克，不知道怎样面对他。

西西·史派克：我需要弄明白的主要问题在于：他第一次告诉我他抢了银行的时候，我相信他吗？请证明给我看。

罗伯特·雷德福：证明？

西西·史派克：没错。

罗伯特·雷德福：你希望我证明吗？

西西·史派克：是的，我以为他只是搭讪而已。我以为他只是想要搞笑而已。

杰弗里·布朗：是的，用这样的话来搞笑确实有点奇怪。但他这样说确实显得更有魅力了。

西西·史派克：但他这样做确实奏效了。

杰弗里·布朗：电影人物还展现了很多想要挣脱某种束缚的感觉。

罗伯特·雷德福：这种感觉总是很吸引我。

杰弗里·布朗：为什么会吸引你呢？

罗伯特·雷德福：挣脱束缚的感觉真的很棒。这个想法很好，尤其是不被困在阴暗里、不举步维艰的感觉。这部影片想要传达的是：无论不同的人物是做什么的，他们都过的很快乐。我很喜欢这个主题，尤其是每个人都要经历黑暗时期。我们生活的时代如此黑暗。这部电影另一个吸引人的地方就是：它能为处于黑暗时期的人带来一丝光明。这是一部很乐观积极的电影，现在看来是一部展现健康心态的电影。

杰弗里·布朗：这部电影是对成长与变老的思考，是吗？我想说，无论是那个角色，如何优雅地老去，在变老的时候要做些什么……

罗伯特·雷德福：我没怎么想过这个问题。

杰弗里·布朗：是吗？

罗伯特·雷德福：准确的说，是没想过变老的问题。

罗伯特·雷德福：所以，不管我是否优雅，我都不想去想这个问题。

杰弗里·布朗：但如果你必须要扮演某个角色的时候呢？

罗伯特·雷德福：我觉得我扮演的角色也不会去想这个问题。我的角色只会做自己喜欢的事情。

杰弗里·布朗：你想过吗？

西西·史派克：我是女性，我当然有想过。

杰弗里·布朗：对哈。

西西·史派克：每每想到，就会有些失落。

西西·史派克：开玩笑啦，其实，我觉得这是我最喜欢的时候之一。我们会得到尊重，被尊重的感觉很棒。

罗伯特·雷德福：这样不好吗？

西西·史派克：这感觉超棒。变老不是生活的全部，变老的感觉也没有那么糟糕。

杰弗里·布朗：实际上，这两个人以前没有搭档演过戏。

罗伯特·雷德福：你知道门关上的时候我会做什么吗？我会跳出窗外。

杰弗里·布朗：但在荧幕上，在大卫·洛维的执导下，整个节奏是轻松的、自然的发展，他会跟我们面对面交流，并给予每个人鼓励。

西西·史派克：在餐厅的那场戏简直太开心了。那你给我讲讲吧。

罗伯特·雷德福：我的风格吗？

西西·史派克：是的。

罗伯特·雷德福：好的，我们就采用这个风格吧，虽然不是我的风格。

西西·史派克：我们第一天做的时候，是一点一点做的，我们有点没耐性了。

罗伯特·雷德福：是的。

西西·史派克：第二天，我们继续做。最后我们说，大卫，我们能一次性完成吗？

罗伯特·雷德福：没错，想一劳永逸。

杰弗里·布朗：哦，是吗？

西西·史派克：我们一次性做完的时候，就有了新的风格。

罗伯特·雷德福：没错。

西西·史派克：你不觉得，其实就是……

罗伯特·雷德福：哦，当然了，没错。感觉一定要对，时间也要对。演的时候可以即兴发挥，只要还在那个故事里，还在那个场景里。

杰弗里·布朗：有道理。那你们出演过这么多的作品，会觉得越演越容易吗？还是越演越难呢？

罗伯特·雷德福：演戏一直都不简单，但是我们会想让演戏看起来没那么难。这是我们的目标，演员都不想让演戏看起来很难。

西西·史派克：有时候，演员会被角色带走。这时候，就不像是我们演戏，而是戏演我们。这时候，就要重演一遍。重演一遍的时候，我会想：刚才发生了什么？我现在在哪儿？

罗伯特·雷德福：我不知道该怎么办。

西西·史派克：你会活在那些片段里，你被角色带入了。有那么一会，你会融入到那个场景里，那个片段里。

罗伯特·雷德福：是的。做演员不可避免地要融入角色中，融入当下的情景中。如果你能融入到那个情景中，即兴发挥就成了很简单的事情。只要你能融入到情景中，只要那个情景是真实的。

罗伯特·雷德福：你可以很沉静地在情景里发挥。

杰弗里·布朗：在《老人和枪》中，演员罗伯特·雷德福是一个无法停止追寻生命存在感的角色，即便他做的事情最终让他身陷囹圄。但雷德福说，这就是这个角色最终的归宿。他还是会停下脚步的。不过这就要在下一期访谈中揭晓啦。这里是杰弗里·布朗从多伦多国际电影节发回的报道。