PBS高端访谈:现实中的虚幻世界（在线收听）

Hari Sreenivasan: You may not know his name, but you likely have seen his iconic art. M.C. Escher, the late Dutch master of lithographs and woodcuts, filled his work with mind-bending illusions and impossible geometric patterns. Remarkably, he did it all by hand. Now, his career and legacy is on display in the largest-ever exhibition of Escher works in the U.S.

Hari Sreenivasan: And the viewer at home thinks I'm really a tiny person. This is the "Relativity Room," which plays a visual trick on those looking from the outside. The tilted floor and tiles make the person standing on the left look much smaller than the person on the right.

Hari Sreenivasan: So this is all just to try to drive home to people that our eyes can deceive us. It's really about your perspective.

Johanna Guttmann: It's how our brain organizes the information that it sees and that how we can play tricks on our brain.

Hari Sreenivasan: And this is what Escher knew, inherently, that we could fool ourselves into thinking.

Johanna Guttmann: Right.

Hari Sreenivasan: The "Relativity Room" is an interactive part of a major exhibition of the work of Dutch artist M.C. Escher. Escher is perhaps most famous for his optical illusions that show seemingly logical scenes that are actually impossible, but he is also known for his intricate pattern work of animals and objects. Over six decades, until his death in 1972, Escher created 448 lithographs, woodcuts and engravings and more than 2,000 drawings and sketches. The Italian art exhibitor Arthemisia, in collaboration with the M.C. Escher Foundation, produced and organized this presentation of 200 of his works from international collections at Brooklyn's Industry City. It's the largest M.C. Escher exhibition ever shown in the United States.

Hari Sreenivasan: I remember seeing a Pink Floyd album jacket with an M.C. Escher work in it. I had no idea that was him.

Johanna Guttmann: Well, actually, more people are familiar with him than they think they are.

Hari Sreenivasan: Johanna Guttmann is the exhibition's manager.

Johanna Guttmann: They don't necessarily make the connections with artwork, artwork that's very iconic. It's when they come here that they see all those references throughout pop culture, whether it's the sleeves for the albums, or whether it's advertising, film, fashion. It's absolutely everywhere.

Hari Sreenivasan: Even though he had no formal training in mathematics, in 1954, the International Congress of Mathematicians held an Escher exhibition, which sparked correspondence between Escher and mathematicians who admired his work.

Hari Sreenivasan: It doesn't seem that his intent was mathematical, but there was so much math involved in what he was creating.

Johanna Guttmann: His intent was not necessarily mathematical, though he is exploring concepts such as infinity very much so throughout his career. However, it's only in the 1950s when he starts this dialogue with mathematicians, and they're reaching out to him and they are inviting him to those international conferences.

Hari Sreenivasan: And he speaks their language.

Johanna Guttmann: Absolutely. He can put on paper what they're speaking of in very abstract terms.

Hari Sreenivasan: Escher's later work often has "impossible" architectural elements. In this lithograph called "Belvedere," look at the columns of this structure: they can't be architecturally sound. And in "Ascending, Descending" the figures are going up and down an "impossible staircase." That staircase makes an appearance in the 2010 sci-fi film "Inception."

Joseph Gordon-Levitt as Arthur: "Like the Penrose steps, the infinite staircase, see.."

Hari Sreenivasan: Even the bench that we are sitting on for this interview illustrates an "impossible" object.

Johanna Guttmann: It's an Impossible Triangle. So it's a triangle that doesn't actually work. It doesn't close properly. But there is an illusion here that if you're on top of it from that angle where we have the camera up on top, it appears as if you're sitting on top of a very tall triangle. If you want to sit back to back to me, it would be better because the camera's actually that way, you want to look at the camera.

Hari Sreenivasan: Got it.

Johanna Guttmann: That way they can see your face.

Hari Sreenivasan: Oh wow. Now we look like we're on top of a giant tri...

Hari Sreenivasan: In this piece, the water feeding the waterfall seems to defy gravity.

Johanna Guttmann: There is the Penrose triangle, or the Impossible Triangle.

Hari Sreenivasan: So he gives us these cues, the elevated path.

Johanna Guttmann: Right .I think he's giving his cues but I think he wants us to play with it. He wants us to see, you know it's not what you think it is.

Hari Sreenivasan: Escher was also inspired by the geometric patterns of Moorish architecture on a trip to Spain in the 1930s, where he studied the intricate motifs at the Alhambra Palace. One of Escher's masterpieces is the 12-foot long "Metamorphosis II." It is made from 20 woodcut block prints.

Johanna Guttmann: Here's some sort of reptiles.

Hari Sreenivasan: Wow. And then all of a sudden we're back to squares again.

Johanna Guttmann: You see you almost don't see the transformation.

Johanna Guttmann: So he's tessellating, but tessellating with animate and inanimate objects.

Hari Sreenivasan: What's the tessellation mean?

Johanna Guttmann: The way we have the repetitive patterns. But here how they fit so perfectly into each other like puzzle pieces.

Hari Sreenivasan: Also on display, Escher's lithograph "Hand with Reflecting Sphere" shows his playful use of mirrored surface. It's a piece that Guttmann uses to start a conversation with younger visitors.

Johanna Guttmann: I like to call it the original selfie, the way he puts his hand out and he's using a reflective sphere the same way that we use our phones today.

Hari Sreenivasan: And for those visitors who want a "selfie" to look like Escher's, the exhibit has a moment for that, too.

Hari Sreenivasan: You put yourself into his selfie.

Johanna Guttmann: And that's really a sense of the entire exhibition, that you can immerse yourself in his world.

Hari Sreenivasan: "Escher: The Exhibition & Experience" is on display until next month.

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：大家或许没听过这位主人公的名字，但你们一定领略过他形象的艺术。莫里茨·科内利斯·埃舍尔，已故荷兰平板印刷、木刻大师在作品中营造了摄人心魄的错觉感和看似不可能的几何图样。令人震惊的额是，他只靠一双手就完成了作品。现在，他的职业生涯和遗产都在美国埃舍尔最大的展览中展出。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：本国的参展者会认为我个子很小。这里是“相对性房间”。人们从外面看进来的时候，视觉上会出现偏差。倾斜的地面和瓷砖让站在左边的人看起来比右边的人小巧一些。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：所以，这些都是为了让人们明白眼睛有时候也会骗人。看待事物的角度不同，结果就会不一样。

约翰娜·古特曼：看到的结果都与大脑组织所看到信息的方式有关，也与我们跟大脑开玩笑的方式有关。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：埃舍尔一直都知道我们可以通过欺骗自己的方式来进行思考。

约翰娜·古特曼：没错。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：这个“相对性房间”是关于荷兰艺术家埃舍尔一个大型展览的互动部分。埃舍尔或许最有名的还是他视错觉作品，展现的都是看似合理的场景，但其实是不可能发生的。不过，埃舍尔闻名于世的还有他有关动物和物体的精巧作品。过去 60年来一直到1972年去世，埃舍尔创作了448个作品，包括平版印刷作品、木刻作品、雕刻品以及2000多张图纸和草图。意大利艺术参展商阿尔米西亚与莫里茨·科内利斯·埃舍尔基金会联手合作，在布鲁克林的餐厅——工业城展出了200幅埃舍尔的作品，这些作品都是从在世界各地收集到的。这是美国史上最大的埃舍尔展览。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：我记得我曾见到过平克·弗洛伊德专辑的夹克，上面印着埃舍尔的作品，但我当时不知道那是埃舍尔。

约翰娜·古特曼：其实，人们对埃舍尔的了解比自己想象的还要多。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：约翰娜·古特曼是这次展览的负责人。

约翰娜·古特曼：大家日常生活中没有跟艺术作品产生联系的必要性，不管这种作品是否为典型作品。只有当大家来到这里，才能通过流行文化来了解它们之间的关联之处，这种关联可以体现在专辑的套筒上，也可以是以广告、电影、时尚的形式体现的，这种关联无处不在。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：虽然他没有在数学领域受过专业的培训，但1954年，国际数学家大会举办了一次埃舍尔展览，这次展览让埃舍尔与仰慕他工作的人之间实现了对话。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：他看起来并不是为了舞弄数学而做的作品，但他创作的作品中包含了很多数学的元素。

约翰娜·古特曼：他创作作品不是为了数学，不过他探索的许多理念，比如无穷，都是贯穿整个职业生涯的。不过，直到上世纪50年代，他才开始跟数学家们对话，数学家们也开始跟他联系，并邀请他参加一些国际会议。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：他也懂得如何以数学家的方式与他们沟通。

约翰娜·古特曼：没错，他可以发表论文，并用抽象的术语来写论文。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：埃舍尔晚年的作品都包含“看似不可能”的建筑学要素。他有一个平板印刷作品名为《瞭望台》，从中可以看到建筑结构的梁柱：从建筑学角度来说，那些梁柱是不合理的。而在《上下阶梯》中，作品里的人物有上楼的，有下楼的。他们脚踩的阶梯都是不可能存在的。其中描绘的阶梯在2010年的科幻电影《盗梦空间》中也有出现。

扮演亚瑟的乔瑟夫·高登-李维：“就像彭罗斯阶梯一样，它是无穷无尽的阶梯，看……”

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：即便是我们现在采访所做的凳子都阐释了“不可能存在”的含义。

约翰娜·古特曼：这是《不可能立方体》，这个立方体其实经不住推敲，也不是严谨闭合的。但人们会出现一种错觉，那就是：如果拿着相机从这个立方体顶部的角度拍摄的话，就会觉得自己真地坐在一个非常高的立方体上。如果能与我背对背而坐的话就更好了，因为相机的角度是这样的，可以感受到作品的魅力。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：我明白了。

约翰娜·古特曼：这样，他们就能看到你的脸了。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：哇哦，现在看起来真地就像坐在顶部，一个大的立方……

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：在这部作品中，瀑布中的水就像完全失重一样。

约翰娜·古特曼：有《潘洛斯三角》，即《不可能三角形》。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：所以他给我了我们这些线索和空中步道。

约翰娜·古特曼：没错，我认为他虽然给了线索，但还是能用线索产生奇异的效果。他希望我们看到的东西并不是我们自以为看到的东西。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：埃舍尔的灵感还来自于摩尔建筑，那是他上世纪30年代去西班牙途中领略到的。在西班牙，他还研究了阿尔罕布拉宫精妙的图案。埃舍尔还有一部作品是12英尺长的《变形Ⅱ》。这部作品是用20个版画组成的。

约翰娜·古特曼：这里有爬行动物的元素。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：哇哦。而突然又转向正方形了。

约翰娜·古特曼：而我们几乎感受不到过渡的过程。

约翰娜·古特曼：所以，他是将它们完全嵌合在一起了，嵌合的元素有动态的也有静止的。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：嵌合是什么意思呢？

约翰娜·古特曼：就是反复的模式，但在他的作品中，所有元素都是完美结合的，就像拼图一样。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：展览中还有埃舍尔的一幅平版印刷作品《手持反射球》。在这幅作品中，他精妙地运用了镜像表面的元素。古特曼通过这幅作品总能打开参观者的话匣子。

约翰娜·古特曼：我想称之为最开始的自拍照，他把手伸出来用反射球面的方式跟我们今天用手机自拍如出一辙。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：对于那些想要做出跟埃舍尔一样“自拍”的游客来说，这次展览也会提供机会的。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：游客可以将自己放进他的自拍照里。

约翰娜·古特曼：这也体现了这次展览的主题——可以将自己与世界融为一体。

哈里·斯瑞尼瓦桑：《埃舍尔：展览与体验》将持续到下个月。