PBS高端访谈:特朗普的墙能立起来吗（在线收听）

Judy Woodruff: As we have been hearing, one issue that's sure to be part of immigration talks in coming weeks is the president's proposed border wall with Mexico. The controversial wall, a hallmark of Mr. Trump's campaign, has yet to materialize. There's still no funding from Congress. Eight prototypes are still being evaluated to see how effective they are. From PBS station KPBS in San Diego, Jean Guerrero examines the challenges of physically keeping illegal immigrants out of the U.S.

President Donald Trump: And we're going to build the wall, the wall. We're going to build the wall.

Jean Guerrero: President Trump promised to build a wall. Here on this dirt patch of land in southeastern San Diego are the main products of those promises, eight prototypes of various colors and materials. Each towers about 30-feet-high, three times the height of the existing border fence just south of them.

Ron Vitiello: Thanks for joining CBP on what we think is an announcement to be proud of.

Jean Guerrero: It's been three months since they were unveiled, with the acting deputy commissioner for U.S. Customs and Border Protection, Ron Vitiello, lauding their scale.

Ron Vitiello: The biggest impression I have is how big they are.

Jean Guerrero: The prototypes cost taxpayers $20 million. But it's unclear if the prototypes will ever be used, because there's still no money for Mr. Trump's wall. The prospect of the wall has inspired several artistic protests, such as a billboard-size image of a little boy peeking into the U.S. over the fence. More recently, artists project light graffiti onto the prototype from Mexico. One of them is Jill Holslin.

Jill Holslin: The border wall is absolutely against the core foundational values of the United States. The core foundational values of the United States have been built upon immigration, upon welcoming refugees, upon creating a society that's very diverse.

Jean Guerrero: But some continue to await the wall with hopeful anticipation. One of those people is Bob Maupin, a retired mechanic whose property touches the border in southeastern San Diego County.

Bob Maupin: And if we get a wall like they built in Israel, I probably won't have to wear a bulletproof vest along the border anymore.

Jean Guerrero: He patrols his property for trespassers from Mexico.

Bob Maupin: Hell yes I'm a vigilante, if you use the word before Hollywood got ahold of it, because, originally, vigilantes were people that were enforcing the law because of the lack of law enforcement.

Jean Guerrero: Along the southern edge of his property, he built a chain-link fence that runs parallel to the government's border fence. He says the government fence is pretty useless because it's so easy to climb, standing only 10 feet tall here, with corrugations that can be used as steps. His fence is crowned with barbed wire. Still, it often gets cut by smugglers. Maupin has patched it with bundles of chain-link and metal slabs.

Bob Maupin: Over the years, my wife and I have spent probably $20,000 in fence repair in property repair because of these people.

Jean Guerrero: Now Maupin feels he must use himself as a barrier against illegal immigration.

Bob Maupin: It is my duty to protect the country from people invading it.

Jean Guerrero: Further east, in the Arizona desert, another man searches for people who get lost illegally crossing the border and tries to save them. Here, it's nature that stops people from coming through. Hundreds die each year from the extreme temperatures. Often, Ely Ortiz recovers their bodies, with the help of a group named Aguilas Del Desierto, Eagles of the Desert. Ortiz says the existing wall is to blame for the deaths, because it has pushed migrants into the desert.

Ely Ortiz (through interpreter): The wall is a method of discrimination. It's a way of saying, you're inferior to me and here I am marking my territory. The United States, with its policies, how many deaths has it caused?

Jean Guerrero: He says a longer wall will mean more deaths. Ortiz started this rescue group after finding the body of his own brother, Rigoberto, in the Arizona desert. Rigoberto died trying to cross the border illegally in 2009.

Ely Ortiz (through interpreter): I lost all illusions, all ambition for having things. I stopped having desires to be somebody. I wanted to dedicate my life to helping people who suffer this.

Jean Guerrero: On this search, Ortiz and his group come across a stack of letters and other things that appear to have belonged to someone who died. A large stain of grease on the desert floor indicates that a corpse was recently removed from here.

Ely Ortiz (through interpreter): "I love you so much, Francisco, my love."

Jean Guerrero: The letters appear to be from the man's girlfriend or wife.

Ely Ortiz (through interpreter):There shouldn't be a border wall. We're all human.

Jean Guerrero: Back in San Diego, Border Patrol agent Joshua Wilson says the wall makes it easier for agents to do their jobs.

Joshua Wilson: No barrier is a be-all, end-all that's going to prevent all illegal activity. However, what it does is it allows us time to interdict the attempt to enter the country illegally. And it acts as a speed bump.

Jean Guerrero: He says there are areas of the border that the wall doesn't address at all, such as the ocean.

Joshua Wilson: We have had people try to swim across, surf across, scuba dive, jet ski. There's no end to the creativity of the people trying to come here illegally.

Jean Guerrero: Maritime apprehensions skyrocketed after the first wall was built. Smugglers also started digging tunnels under the fence and using drones. And now government statistics show that most drug trafficking occurs through ports of entry. Experts on both sides of the political spectrum agree that even if President Trump's wall is built, smugglers won't stop finding new strategies for getting people into the U.S. For the PBS NewsHour ,I'm Jean Guerrero in San Diego.

朱蒂·伍德瑞夫：我们一直听说，未来几周的移民谈判中肯定会涉及到总统的墨西哥边界隔离墙提案。这座隔离墙饱受争议，是特朗普竞选时的一个标志，目前尚未建成。国会尚未对此提供资金支持。八个设计方案仍在接受评估，看看它们效果如何。珍妮·格雷罗从圣地亚哥PBS站点KPBS为您报道，物理（隔离）手段驱逐非法移民面临诸多问题。

总统唐纳德·特朗普：我们要建那座墙，那座隔离墙。我们要把它建起来！

珍妮·格雷罗：特朗普总统承诺建造一堵（隔离）墙。这里是圣地亚哥东南部一块满是泥泞的土地，也正是这些承诺兑现的众矢之的。隔离墙现有八种不同颜色不同材料的设计方案。每座墙都有大约30英尺高，是现存南侧围栏高度的三倍。

罗恩·维蒂埃洛：感谢大家的到来，CBP认为这是一件令人倍感骄傲的事情。

珍妮·格雷罗：自宣布那天起，这件事已过去了三个月，CBP代理副专员罗恩·维蒂埃洛对他们的壮举大加称赞。

罗恩·维蒂埃洛：给我印象最深的是，它们真是非常高大。

珍妮·格雷罗：这些设计样本花了纳税人2000万美元。但目前还不清楚这些设计样本是否会得到采纳，因为特朗普的这座隔离墙，仍然没人出钱。这座墙的尴尬境地激起了几个艺术抗议活动。比如，有人画了一张广告牌那么大的画，画中一个小男孩正趴在围墙上窥视美国。最近，还有艺术家在墨西哥一面的设计样本上投影涂鸦。其中一个便是吉尔·郝斯林。

吉尔·郝斯林：边界墙完全违背了美国的核心基础价值观。美国的核心价值观是建立在移民上的，这里欢迎难民、欢迎建立多元文化社会。

珍妮·格雷罗：但有些人对这堵墙还是满怀希望。鲍勃·莫平就是其中的一位，鲍勃已经退休，是位机械师，他家房子靠近圣迭戈县东南部边境。

鲍勃·莫平：如果我们有一个像他们在以色列建造的那种围墙，我可能就再也不用穿防弹背心了。

珍妮·格雷罗：他要防着从墨西哥来的越境者，保护他的财产安全。

鲍勃·莫平：是的，我是个义务警员，要是好莱坞没用这词儿的话。因为，义务警员原本的意思是指在执法人手不足时的执法者。

珍妮·格雷罗：在他家南边，他建造了一个平行于政府边界栅栏的锁链栅栏。他说政府的栅栏根本没用，因为它太容易攀爬，只有10英尺高，还有褶皱，脚都可以踩住。他的篱笆上有带刺的铁丝网。然而，走私者们常把它切断。莫平已经把它捆上了链条和金属板。

鲍勃·莫平：多年来，我和妻子因为这些人已经花了20000美元，专门为了修理围墙。

珍妮·格雷罗：现在，莫平觉得他必须亲自打击非法移民。

鲍勃·莫平：保护国家不受侵犯是我的责任。

珍妮·格雷罗：再往东，在亚利桑那州沙漠，有人（竟会）搜寻那些非法越境的人，尝试对他们实施营救。在这里，自然阻挡了人们的去路。每年死于极端气温的人多达几百。通常，在Aguilas Del Desierto沙漠之鹰小组的帮助下，伊利·奥尔蒂斯帮助他们恢复（身体机能）。奥尔蒂斯说，现在已有的（隔离）墙正是造成他们死亡的原因，因为这些墙把移民逼向沙漠。

伊利·奥尔蒂斯（经翻译）：隔离墙政策是一种歧视。这是在说，你不如我，这里是我的地盘。美国，因其政策，多少人只剩白骨？

珍妮·格雷罗：他说更长的墙意味着更多的死亡。2009年，里戈韦托非法越境，死在半路。奥尔蒂斯（最终）在亚利桑那州沙漠找到了他的尸体，从此以后，她开始组建搜救小组，展开救援。

伊利·奥尔蒂斯（经翻译）：我所有的幻想均已破灭，雄心壮志也都灰飞烟灭。我放弃了渴望成为某人的愿望。我想把一生都献给那些遭受苦难的人们，帮助他们。

珍妮·格雷罗：在搜救中，奥尔蒂斯和他的搜救小组收到了很多来信还有其他东西，这些东西似乎都是死者遗物。沙漠地面上的大片油渍表明，刚有尸体从这里移走。

伊利·奥尔蒂斯（经翻译）：“我深深地爱着你，佛朗西斯科，我的爱人。”

珍妮·格雷罗：这封信似乎出自他女友或妻子之手。

伊利·奥尔蒂斯（经翻译）：根本不应该有边界存在。我们都是人。

珍妮·格雷罗：回到圣地亚哥，边境巡逻部门的约书亚·威尔逊说，有了这些墙，他们做起工作来更容易了。

约书亚·威尔逊：对于阻止非法活动而已，任何隔离设施都并非十全十美。但在阻止非法入境一事上，它们为我们赢得了时间。作用就像路面减速器。

珍妮·格雷罗：他说有一些边界地区，用墙根本解决不了问题，比如海洋。

约书亚·威尔逊：我们曾让人尝试通过游泳、冲浪、潜水、喷气式滑雪等方式渡海。要想通过非法途径来到这里，人们总有办法，创新永无止境。

珍妮·格雷罗：早先第一座墙立起来以后，来自海上的忧惧陡然上升。走私者也开始在围栏下挖掘隧道，还使用了无人机。如今政府统计数字表明，大多数贩毒行为都发生在入境口岸。政治光谱双方专家一致认为，即使特朗普总统的墙立了起来，走私活动也不会停止，那些人总会找到进入美国的新方法。我是PBS NewsHour珍妮·格雷罗，圣地亚哥为您报道。