福克斯新闻 K.T.麦克法兰:美国正在经历创新型破坏期(1)（在线收听）

Let's bring in Former Deputy National Advisor K.T. McFarland, author of the upcoming book, "Revolution: Trump, Washington, and We the People." K.T., it is great to see you. It's great to be with you. I know that you've been on Fox Business and we saw each other doing some coverage in the afternoon. But it's been a long time since you've been on our program. So -- Thank you. -- welcome back. Thank you. Wonderful to have you. And you've been working on this book -- Yeah. -- over the past couple of years. Anything you want to say about, you know, the time that you've been away and working on the book and being back now? Well, I left -- when I left the administration, I then got caught up with the Mueller investigation, even though I'd never met any Russians, never talked to any Russians. But I experienced it from the inside. And it's absolutely terrifying when they've decided they want to get somebody. So, after that and after I was cleared by them, I just disappeared. I needed to make sense of what was going on, not just for me personally, but for the country. I mean, why are we ripping ourselves apart like this? And where does it go? I mean, are we finished as a nation? So, I went off. I reflected on it and then I wrote a book. And I came back, in fact, quite invigorated that what we are going through now is like a creative destruction period. America goes through them every 40 years. They're nasty. They're mean. We think it's the end of the world. But out of it comes an American reborn. And I think that's where will be -- Give me a comparison from 40 years ago. What parallels do you see? Well, Regan, the obvious one, but I would go back even further and say, let's say Andrew Jackson. So, we had the Revolutionary War. We had revolutionary leaders. And they threw out the British establishment and set up a new government. But then the country changed. We had immigration. People did different things for their livings. They moved demographically, geographically. The whole country changed. And the country said, "We want more. We want more people to have the right to vote."

我们请到了前副国家安全顾问K.T.麦克法兰，她的新书即将出版，书名叫《革命：特朗普、华盛顿和我们人民》。K.T.，很高兴见到你。我知道你以前上过福克斯经济新闻栏目，我们见过面，那次是下午，我们做了一些报道。但你上我们节目是很久以前的事了。那么——谢谢。——欢迎回来。谢谢。很高兴你能来。你一直在写这本书——是的。——在过去的几年里。你想说点什么吗？关于你离开去写书，现在又回来的事。我离开——当我离开政府部门时，我赶上了穆勒的调查，即便我从未与俄罗斯人会面、交谈过。但我在内部感受到了这一点。当他们决定要抓到人时，自然是非常可怕的。所以，在此之后，在我通过他们的检查之后，我就消失了。我需要搞懂到底发生了什么，并不单单是为了我个人，而是为了整个国家。我是说，我们为什么分裂成这样？事情将会向何处发展？我是说，我们国家要完了吗？所以，我离开了。我思考这件事，之后我就写了一本书。然后我回来了，事实上，我精力充沛。我们现在所经历的就像是一个创新型的破坏期。每40年，美国就经历一次。它们令人厌恶。它们十分恶劣。我们觉得这就是世界末日。但经历此事之后，美国就会重生。我觉得，这就是事情发展的方向——给我举一个40年前的对比。你看到了什么类似的事情？嗯，很明显的一个就是里根，但我要说的是更早的事，我们说说安德鲁·杰克逊吧。我们经过了独立战争。我们有一些革命领袖。他们否定了英国当权派，建立了新政府。但那时，国家发生了变化。我们经历了移民。为了生计，人们做着各种各样的事情。他们在人口上和地理上都发生了移动。整个国家都在改变。国家说：“我们想要更多。我们想让更多人拥有选举权。”

And so, Andrew Jackson led a revolution to have more people be able to vote. Not women, yet, mind you, but Americans. We then went through it again in the Progressive Movement in the 1900s after the Industrial Revolution, where American workers said, "We want some rights. We're being taken advantage of by these wealthy business owners." And so, we demanded rights. And so, every 40 years -- the reason is always different why. Sometimes we rebel against too much government, sometimes too little. But at the end of the day, the reassuring thing is that we're the only country in the world that reinvents ourselves. Because who's dominant? Who really has sovereignty? Not the bureaucratic state, it's the voters. All right. I got a bunch of things I got to ask you about -- Okay. -- in the news. But I'm fascinated to hear that. And as I said, welcome back. John Bolton, you know, everybody looks at John Bolton and he's sort of surfaced over the weekend -- Yeah. -- saying, "Hello. I'm still here and I have things I want to say." And I think that probably sent a bit of a chill through the White House because they don't know how he's gonna come down. He, apparently, is another one of these notorious note takers who brought a lot of documents and a lot of notes with him when he left. Now, Don McGahn is gonna have to testify, unless the DOJ has their way on that. What do you think John Bolton will do? Do you think he will hurt the president if he comes out and speaks? I think John Bolton is a man who feels very strongly in certain things. He's a neocon. He's somebody who believed in the Iraq and Afghanistan War. And I think he feels that once you get rid of Donald Trump, the country goes back to that kind of a Republican party. And I think he's wrong. 

因此，安德鲁·杰克逊领导革命，让更多人可以进行投票。但是指不包括女性在内的美国人，请别介意。工业革命之后的1900年代，我们又经历了进步运动，美国的工人说道：“我们想要些权利。我们被这些富商利用了。”我们需要权利。每40年——原因总是不同的。有时我们反对政府管得太多，有时则反对政府管得太少。但在一天快要结束时，令人欣慰的是，我们是世界上唯一一个重塑自我的国家。因为谁占有统治地位？谁真正拥有主权？不是官僚国家，而是选民。好的。我有一堆问题要问你——好的。——关于新闻。但我很想听这个。正如我之前所说，欢迎回来。约翰·博尔顿，人人都在关注约翰·博尔顿，他周末时露面了——是的。——说：“你们好。我依然在这里，我有一些话想说。”我觉得这可能会让白宫的人打个冷颤，因为他们不知道他会回来。显然，他也是一个臭名昭著的记录员，他走的时候带走了许多文件和记录。如今，唐·麦加恩必须作证，除非司法部有他们自己处理此事的方法。你认为约翰·博尔顿会做什么？你觉得，如果他出来讲话，他会伤害到总统先生吗？我觉得约翰·博尔顿在某些事情上的态度很明确。他是个新保守主义者。他相信伊拉克战争和阿富汗战争能解决问题。而且我认为，他觉得一旦摆脱了特朗普，美国就会回到共和党领导的状态。我觉得他说错了。