福克斯新闻 K.T.麦克法兰:美国正在经历创新型破坏期(2)（在线收听）

I think the country has changed. I think we're sick of the forever wars and that Trump has actually tapped into something. Now, is John Bolton gonna be spoiler -- is he gonna be the guy that brings down Donald Trump? First of all, I don't think there's anything there to bring him down over. And number two, I just don't think John Bolton wants to end his career as being someone who spoiled things. I mean, I think he feels -- he's someone who has a lot to say. I don't agree with him on a lot of things. But I think that's the end of -- that's a career ender -- Yeah. -- not a career beginner. Somebody said in National Interest that he, "Bolton is weary of Trump, but unwilling to officially cross him." And it sounds like you agree. I would agree. All right. I want to talk to you about Michael Flynn, who you worked very closely with. Yes. And the IG report, the inklings that we have so far suggest that an FBI agent, someone who was working on this case, may have misquoted or altered his statement or altered something about their discussion with him. What's your reaction when you hear that? Well, first of all, I've not talked to Mike Flynn since the day he left the White House. I talked to him on the phone a week after just to make sure he was okay. But I think that Mike Flynn -- something happened. And I'm not quite sure what. Even though I know him, I worked very closely with him. But something happened, either the intelligence community decided they wanted to get rid of him because he was going to reform the intelligence community and they were afraid of that, or because he was a weak link. Now, how do you get to Trump? Let's look for any opportunity. I mean, we've just seen three years of, "How do we get Trump?" It's the Russia hoax, it's Ukraine, it's whatever, porn stars, who knows? But I think Mike Flynn may have been the initial weak link and they thought they could go after him unintelligible. Do you think he did anything wrong? I don't know. I mean, I was not in those meetings that he supposedly told the FBI agents one thing and then he perjured himself.

我觉得国家发生了改变。我觉得我们厌恶了无尽的战争，特朗普的确探寻出了一些东西。目前，约翰·博尔顿正在搞破坏——他是那个要打倒唐纳德·特朗普的人吗？首先，我认为没有什么东西能打倒他。其次，我认为约翰·博尔顿还想继续搞破坏。我是说，我认为他感觉——他有许多话要说。我和他在许多问题上的意见不合。但我认为那是尽头——那是事业的尽头——是的。——而非事业的开端。《国家利益》杂志上，有人评论他说，“博尔顿厌倦了特朗普，但他不愿意正式地反对他。”听上去你可能会同意这个观点。我同意。好的。我想和你说说迈克尔·弗林，你之前和他共事，关系比较近。是的。IG报告，我们目前为止略知一二的是，一个调查这个案子的FBI特工可能错误引用或更改了他的声明，或是改了他们和他讨论的内容。听到这个消息，你作何反应？嗯，首先，自从迈克尔·弗林离开白宫后，我就没有和他说过话。一周后，我和他通过电话，确保他还好。但我觉得迈克尔·弗林——发生了一些事。我不太确定。即便我认识他，我与他共事，关系比较近。但发生了一些事，不管是情报界决定让他离开，因为他要对情报界进行改革，他们对此表示恐惧，还是因为他是一个薄弱环节。目前，你是怎么让特朗普下台的？我们来寻找机会。我是说，我们听了三年“我们怎么让特朗普下台？”这是俄罗斯弄的恶作剧，乌克兰，不管是什么，艳星，谁知道呢？但我认为迈克尔·弗林可能曾是最初的薄弱环节，他们觉得他们可以跟在他后面。你认为他做错了什么？我不知道。我是说，我没有参与那些会议，他说他和FBI特工说了一件事，然后他自相矛盾了。

I do think he did something wrong by not filing himself as a foreign agent, particularly in the Turkish dealings. But -- Right. -- but, you know, it's the job of a national security advisor to talk to foreign leaders -- Yeah. -- prior to a president taking office. I want to get your thought on Fiona Hill. Because I know that something stood out to you in her testimony. And you hired her -- I did. I did. -- or you were part of that process to hire -- No, I hired her. -- a Russia expert. She suggested that the Russians created this whole Ukrainian narrative, that it was really Ukraine and not Russia. And she suggested that they successfully convinced Rudy Giuliani, who convinced President Trump, that it was all in the Ukraine and that there was something bad going on there to deflect from Russia. She suggested that they fell for that story from the Russians. Is she right? I think she's probably right. I mean, there's pretty -- to my mind, there's evidence that is irrefutable evidence that the Russians mucked around in our 2016 election and they want to do it again. But if you also look back at Russian history, Soviet history, what have they been doing for the last 70 years? They've been trying to get into our political system and sow dissent. And I think that's what they did this time. And I think the one guy who's particularly happy with the way things are going is Vladimir Putin. Look how we're destroying ourselves. So, is the president wrong to be going down this Ukraine rabbit hole? I think Ukraine -- it's Russia. And whether Ukraine had a part in it or not, the main actor was Russia. And I think that the president's interest in Ukraine is, "Why give these guys money when they're the most corrupt country in the world? Clean up your act, then we'll give you some money." I know that you said he said something on the call that he probably shouldn't have said as well with regard to Joe Biden. So, we have a lot more to talk about, so we're gonna have you back -- Okay. Sounds good. -- very soon. K.T. McFarland, thank you very much. Thanks, Martha. The new book is called, "Revolution."

我的确认为他做错了，因为他没有在文件中表明自己是外国特工，尤其是在土耳其那个案子里。但——是的。但是，你知道的，国家安全顾问的职责就是与外国领导人对话——是的。——是在总统上任之前。我想知道你对菲奥娜·希尔怎么看。因为我知道，她的证词中有一些内容引起了你的注意。而且你雇佣了她——是的。是的。——或者你参与了雇佣她的某个环节——不，我雇佣了她。——一名俄罗斯特工。她表示，俄罗斯人制造了整个乌克兰事件，都是乌克兰的事，并不是俄罗斯的事。她表示，他们成功说服了鲁迪·朱利安尼，他说服了特朗普，全都是乌克兰的事，有一些糟糕的事情正在发生，这会转移对俄罗斯的注意力。她表示，他们被俄罗斯人的故事骗了。她说的对吗？我觉得她说的可能是对的。我是说，非常——依我看，有不可辩驳的迹象表明，俄罗斯搅局了我们2016年的大选，而且他们还想这么做。但如果你回过头去看俄罗斯的历史，前苏联的历史，他们在过去的70年中做了什么？他们试图搅入我们的政治体系，并让我们产生分歧。而且我认为，他们这次也是这样做的。我觉得，弗拉基米尔·普京尤其喜欢看到事情会如此发展。看他是怎样毁了我们的。所以，陷入乌克兰陷阱里，总统先生是做错了吗？我觉得乌克兰——是俄罗斯。不管乌克兰是否参与进去了，主角就是俄罗斯。而且我觉得总统先生对乌克兰的兴趣点在于，“他们是世界上最腐败的国家，为什么还要把钱给这些人？改正你们的行为，然后我们会把钱给你们。”我知道你说过，他在电话中说了有关乔·拜登的一些本不该说的事情。那么，我们还有许多话要说，所以我们下次还要邀请你来——好的。听起来不错。——就在不久之后。K.T.麦克法兰，非常感谢你。谢谢你，玛莎。新书名叫《革命》。