英国新闻听力 英国ATM机收费之争（在线收听）

但是首先要交代的是，收费的ATM机数量的增长日益引起用户和消费者群体的关注。在英国一些地区，用户没有选择余地，只能付费取款。虽然大多数ATM机是免费的，但是目前大概有25，000多台却是收费的。

注释：

1.garage n. 修车厂，车库 2.consensus n. 一致同意

3.hefty adj. 重的，沉重的 4.surcharge n. 额外费用

5.albeit conj. 即使 6.convert vt. 使转变

7.Cardpoint 公司名称，是ATM独立采购商

8.alternative adj. 选择性的 9.arrangement n. 准备，计划

10.reclaim vt. 要求归还，收回 11.estate n. 不动产

12.Fife n. 法夫，苏格兰东部一地区

13.preach v. 鼓吹，宣扬 14.Co-Op n. <俚>消费合作社

15.Wales [ n. 威尔士 16.utilize vt. 利用

17.solution n. 解决办法 18.eventually adv. 最后，终于

19.migrate vi. 迁移 20.transaction n. 交易，业务

21.sophistication n. 诡辩

Charging for ATMs in the UK

But first, the growing number of cash machines which charge us to get at our own money is causing increasing concern among customers and consumer groups. In some parts of the country there's no choice but to pay to take out cash. Although most cash machines remain free, there are now more than 25,000 in small shops, garages, pubs and clubs which do charge on average ￡1.55 for every withdrawal. This week Treasury minister Ivan Lewis called the cash machine industry to a meeting with consumer groups to discuss the whole question of cash machine charges. Money Box has brought together three of the people from that debate. First Teresa Perchard. She's Director of Policy at Citizens Advice and also a member of the government's Financial Inclusion Taskforce. Teresa, we've talked about this problem for years on Money Box. Was this just another talking shop this week?

PERCHARD: Well we certainly talked. It was a good meeting because it brought together people from the financial services sector, from the card operating and owning sector, and consumer groups, with John McFall and ministers to discuss it.

LEWIS: Did you get to any conclusions though?

PERCHARD: Well yes in that there is consensus to do some more work on this together to look at the evidence.　I think there's growing concern particularly in the financial services sector - and you're going to talk to Nationwide - about the impact of fee charging machines in low income areas where we may be seeing a withdrawal of free machines and people in those areas who may rely on benefits and not have cars, rely on public transport to get to the nearest town may be facing you know a hefty surcharge to withdraw small amounts of money from these machines. So we've agreed to get together, look at the evidence under the leadership of John McFall, which is very important - he's Chair of the Treasury Select Committee - and also within that, I think that one of the big issues is about signage and consumer awareness of charging and see how we can improve that even further.

LEWIS: Yes because that has changed, hasn't it? And also at the meeting was, as you said, Alan Oliver from Nationwide. Alan, Nationwide is sort of the self-appointed champion of free machines. Why don't you just expand your network into these areas that concern you?

OLIVER: Well we certainly have been campaigning on this issue for a number of years and we believe that the more we can do to protect the free ATM network, the better.

LEWIS: Yeah but it's growing, isn't it? There are now more free cash machines. What I'm saying to you is you believe in them. Why don't you put machines in these areas where there's no access to cash?

OLIVER: Well certainly where it's economic to put a free machine in, we will do so and we have been doing so. We've always acknowledged that there are places where a free machine isn't economic and there's a case for charge, but …

LEWIS: Well that's the point though, isn't it - that where it isn't economic, the charging machines move in and that at least gives people access to cash, albeit at a price?

OLIVER: Well, interestingly, about 500 ATMs last year were converted from free to charging and on average we're losing a site every month to a charging operator. And what's happening is the charging operators are aggressively marketing their sites, and people are seeing sites that used to be free turning into charging machines and that's not offering choice or any sort of consumer value.

LEWIS: Right, well also listening to us is Mark Mills. He runs Cardpoint. I think it's now the biggest charging cash machine company with over 5,000. Mark, you took over 800 free Halifax machines last year and 300 of them now charge customers - so you're part of this charging march, aren't you?

MILLS: That's right, Paul, but you'll be glad to know that we also operate just under 300 still free. And had we not acquired those from HBOS, the majority, in our opinion, would have been closed because, as Alan pointed out, they weren't economic in their operation.

So we believe that we've left the choice with the customers and said, look, if you're prepared to pay for this transaction that's great, we'll carry on running the machine. If you're not prepared to pay, then please make alternative arrangements. Had we not stepped in, that machine would be closed and there would be no choice anyway.

LEWIS: Yes, so you're calling it choice but in some areas there isn't really a choice, is there, because there's only a charging machine? You've got to pay ￡1.50 or I think with most of your machines ￡1.75 to get at your own money.

MILLS: Really that's down to the banks, isn't it? We offer a take it or leave it service. If you wish to pay and get the machine in a closer location to where you live, that's your choice. If you want to go to where the banks tend to base their machines, which isn't actually where most of us live any more or work or play, then you can get at your money for free. But the difference also, as I mentioned before on the programme, is we operate machines with our own money in and we effectively charge people to take it out and then we reclaim it from their bank. If they go to their own bank machine, they'll never be charged.

LEWIS: You see Alan Oliver from Nationwide, I mean that's the challenge to you, isn't it? It's all very well believing in free machines, but put your money where your mouth is and open them up in housing estates, in rural areas where it might cost you a bit to run them but at least you'll give people the free access you believe in.

OLIVER: Well we already are, but first of all it would be interesting to know whether those 300 machines Mark talked about will remain free for long. I'll give you an example. We were recently approached by a community in Fife who wanted a free machine in place of their card point charging machine, so we've investigated that and sure enough we're putting one in there. And there's a number of examples of that up and down the country, so we are practising what we preach.

LEWIS: Teresa Perchard, is this the answer - to get the banks, to get the people like Nationwide who say they believe in free machines to look at areas where to give people a genuine choice - a charging machine and a free one next door to each other?

PERCHARD: I think that's the opportunity that's provided by the further work we're going to do with John McFall over the next 6 months because certainly Nationwide and Co-Op Financial Services have said that there are growing concerns about some areas that are free cash machine deserts. We need to bring in the Post Office here as well.

They do have some free machines, but a lot of the machines in Post Offices are still charging ones; and consumers have told us, people who live in Canon Valley in South Wales, that they've got no free cash machines within 12, 14 miles of the village and with a ￡3.50 bus fare.

So they're trapped. The older people on low incomes are pretty trapped with the cash machine in the Post Office which charges. And it's areas like that where …

LEWIS: Yes, we've talked to the Post Office before about this and obviously they're not on the programme.

PERCHARD: We hope they will be on the group working with us. And I think utilising the banks interest and growing concern here, we ought to be able to cut through some of these debates about who's got what charging machines out there and get some solutions.

LEWIS: Right. And Mark Mills from Cardpoint. Alan Oliver raised the point will all those machines that are currently free that you took over remain free? Are you eventually going to migrate them to charging machines as you call it?

MILLS: We're happy to operate them if it's economic on a free basis, but it relies on such a huge volume of transactions. And given the level of sophistication of Radio 4 listeners, you should also mention Paul that it is quite difficult in some cases for the banks to make this work because if Nationwide do install a machine, they should only really have to serve their own customers. Why a NatWest customer would expect Nationwide to bear the operating costs of a machine is a different argument.

LEWIS: Well that's how Link works. Mark Mills from Cardpoint, thank you, and also thank you to Alan Oliver from Nationwide, Teresa Perchard from Citizens Advice.

英国ATM机收费之争

但是首先要交代的是，收费的ATM机数量的增长日益引起用户和消费者群体的关注。在英国一些地区，用户没有选择余地，只能付费取款。虽然大多数ATM机是免费的，但是目前大概有25，000多台却是收费的。这些ATM机一般设在小商店、汽修站或是酒馆夜总会等场所。平均每次取款收取1.55英镑的手续费。财政部长伊凡·刘易斯于本周召集ATM机运营商和消费者代表举行了一次会议，就ATM机的收费问题展开讨论。财富箱栏目邀请了这次讨论的三位代表，他们来自不同的群体。第一位，特里萨·帕恰德，公民咨询局政策司司长，同时也是金融能力工作组的成员之一。特里萨，这个问题在"财富箱"讨论已久，本周的访谈是不是又只是一次专业的讨论呢？

帕恰德：我们的确讨论过这个问题。这次会议很有意义，因为它汇集了财政服务、信用卡运营商及生产商和消费者群体各自的代表，约翰·麦克法尔以及各个部长也参与这次讨论。

刘易斯：那你们得出什么结论了吗？

帕恰德：是的。我们已经达成共识，要更多地关注这种现象。我想财政服务部门对此尤为关注。你一会儿还将会和全英房屋抵押贷款协会（Nationwide)讨论到这个状况--在低收入地区索取提款手续费所带来的影响。在这些低收入地区，人们可能要依赖救济金生活。他们没有私家车，要借助公共交通工具到最近的镇上取钱。而如果免费ATM机停用，那他们从这些机器中提取一笔数目不大的钱就得支付几英镑的手续费，这对他们是个很重的负担。因此我们愿意为此聚在一起，看看财政特别委员会主席约翰·麦克法尔领导下的形势变化。这一点很重要。而且在这种形势变化中，我认为最重要的问题之一是关于ATM机的收费标志和消费者的付费意识，以便确定我们如何进一步改善这种情况。

刘易斯：没错，因为情况已经发生了变化，对吧？此外，正如你刚才提到的，与会的还有全英房屋抵押贷款协会（Nationwide)的艾伦·奥利弗。艾伦，全英房屋抵押贷款协会（Nationwide)可以说是自封为支持免费取款机的先锋。那为什么你们不借此把你们的网络扩展到你们所关心的这些地区呢？

奥利弗：哦，我们这几年确实一直在致力于这项活动，而且我们相信，对于保护免费的ATM机网络，我们能做的努力越多，结果就会越好。

刘易斯：是的，但是收费的ATM机数量一直在增长，不是吗？尽管目前看来还是免费的多一些。你也知道情况的确是这样。那你们为什么不在那些没办法取钱的地方设置机器呢？

奥利弗：的确，在那些比较经济的地方，我们就会设置ATM机，而且我们一直以来也是这么做的。同时我们也一直承认，还有一些地方，设置ATM机不太经济，因为涉及到运营费用的问题，但是…

刘易斯：好，那才是关键，对不对？在设置免费ATM机不能获利的地方，收费的ATM机就进入了，那样虽然要付费，但是至少人们可以方便地取到钱。

奥利弗：有趣的是，去年大约有500台ATM机由免费转变为收费。而我们平均每个月都有一个取款机网点被收费的运营商吞掉。目前收费的运营商们还正在野心勃勃地拓展他们的网点。人们现在看到的是以前免费的网点变成了收费的，不给大家提供选择的机会，也丝毫没有考虑到消费者的利益。

刘易斯：好的。正在听我们谈话的还有马克·米尔斯。他经营的是Cardpoint公司（英国现金设备业主）。我想该公司现在应该是最大的收费ATM机供应商，拥有5000多台取款机。马克，去年你接管了800台免费的哈利法克斯取款机，而现在，其中300台改成收费的了。那么，你是支持收费的，对吗？

米尔斯：没错，保罗。但是我们还有不到300台ATM机仍是免费的。知道这一点想必你会很高兴。如果我们当初没有从哈利法克斯苏格兰银行（HBOS）投标这些ATM机的话，那么，在我们看来，原先大多数的免费ATM机早就已经停用了。因为，就像艾伦刚才指出的，这些免费ATM机运营起来是很难获利的。

所以，我们认为我们已经给了消费者选择的机会，而且，我们还说了，看，如果你已经作好准备为这个业务付费的话，那就太好了，我们会继续让这些机器运作。如果你不准备付费的话，那么请另作安排吧。如果没有我们的介入，这些取款机早就被停用了，你们也就不会有任何选择。

刘易斯：哦，这就是为什么你称其为"选择"，但在有些地方实际上是没有真正的"选择"的。那些地方，是不是因为只有一台收费的ATM机呢？你得付1.5英镑，或者我想你们大多数ATM机是1.75英镑，才能取到你自己的钱。

米尔斯：事实上，这问题应该归结到银行，不是吗？我们提供了一个选择和放弃这两者的服务。如果你愿意付费，到离你住所较近的地方取钱的话，你就选择我们的服务。如果你想去找银行的ATM机，那儿实际上往往都不是我们大多数人居住、工作或娱乐的地方，那么你就去那儿免费取钱吧。但是，正如我之前在节目上谈过的，两种做法的区别在于我们操作ATM机，是把我们自己的钱放进去，然后通过对取款人收费后，我们再从他们账户所在的银行把这笔钱收回来。如果他们去使用他们的账户所在银行的ATM机，就不用付费了。

刘易斯：你看，全英房屋抵押贷款协会（Nationwide）的艾伦·奥利弗，我的意思是那就是对你们的一个挑战，对吗？你们协会一直声称你们力争ATM机能免费操作，所以你们要付诸实际行动，让这些免费机器向房屋贷款开放，向偏远地区开放，而只要你们在上面花上一点点的钱去运营，就至少可以向人们提供你们所争取的免费取钱的机会。

奥利弗：是的，我们已经在这么做了。但是首先我很好奇，我想知道马克刚刚谈到的那300台机器免费的时间能否维持得很长。我给你举个例子。最近法夫郡有个社区找到我们，说他们想要一个免费的ATM机来代替Cardpoint公司的收费机。所以我们就对当地进行了调查。现在确定的是我们将要在那儿设置一台免费ATM机。在全国上下还有很多这样的例子。所以，我们一直在践行我们所宣传的理念。

刘易斯：特里萨·帕恰德，这会不会是一个解决办法呢？就是让各个银行、还有像全英房屋抵押贷款协会（Nationwide）这样声称支持ATM机免费的人去考察一些地区，给大家一个真正的选择的机会-----设置一个收费机和一个免费机，两个放在一起供大家选择。

帕恰德：我想通过我们接下来六个月时间和约翰·麦克法尔一起的进一步努力，会给大家提供这样的选择机会。因为确实全英房屋抵押贷款协会（Nationwide）和金融服务合作社都表示他们对完全没有免费ATM机的地区的关注在增强。我们还需要把邮局也牵扯进来。

邮局确实有一部分免费的ATM机，但是他们还有很多ATM机还是要收费的。有消费者告诉我们，住在南威尔士卡农谷的人们，他们在方圆12到14英里，坐公共汽车都要花费3.50磅的地方都找不到一台免费的ATM机。

所以他们就为取款所困。年长的低收入人群由于邮局的ATM机收费，就得面临更深的困境。也就是在像诸如此类的地区…

刘易斯：好，我们之前就这个问题和邮局探讨过，而显然现在他们没在节目上。

帕恰德：我提到邮局只是希望他们能够和我们一起努力。而且我认为利用银行的影响力和大家日益增强的关注，我们应该能够尽快通过这些关于谁来管理那些收费ATM机的讨论，来得出一些解决方案。

刘易斯：对。那么，来自Cardpoint的马克·米尔斯，艾伦·奥利弗刚才提到了关键的一点，你现在接管的所有免费的ATM机会一直会免费下去吗？还是最终你会把免费的也改成收费的呢？

米尔斯：如果在免费取款的基础上还有利可图的话，我们会很乐意这么运作。但是，能否这样做要依赖于交易的数额是否庞大。考虑到第四电台的听众群比较复杂，你也应该提到，保罗，在有些情况下，银行是很难做好这个工作的。因为，如果全英房屋抵押贷款协会（Nationwide）设置了一台取款机，那么事实上他们应该就只需要为他们自己的用户服务。而如果国家西敏银行（Natwest）的用户也期望由全英房屋抵押贷款协会（Nationwide）来承担取款机的运营成本的话，那就另当别论了。

刘易斯：好的，这就是他们之间的联系机制。来自Cardpoint的马克·米尔斯，谢谢你。同样也感谢全英房屋抵押贷款协会（Nationwide）的艾伦·奥利弗和公民咨询局的特里萨·帕恰德。