美国国家公共电台 NPR 美司法部长巴尔出席众议院听证会 与民主党人激烈交锋（在线收听）

Attorney General William Barr finally took questions before the House Judiciary Committee yesterday. Democrats confronted the attorney general about his personal intervention in cases of interest to the president. They questioned the way federal agents have handled protests in Portland, Ore., among other places, although Barr gave no ground.

美国司法部长威廉·巴尔昨天终于出席了众议院司法委员会听证会并回答了问题。民主党人就司法部长在涉及总统利益案件中的个人干预情况与其进行了对质。他们对联邦探员在俄勒冈州波特兰市和其他地方处理抗议的方式提出了质疑，但巴尔并未给出任何理由。

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WILLIAM BARR: What unfolds nightly around the courthouse cannot reasonably be called protest. It is, by any objective measure, an assault on the government of the United States.

威廉·巴尔：每晚在法院周围所发生的事不能被合理地称为抗议。以任何客观标准衡量，这都是对美国政府的攻击。

INSKEEP: NPR national justice correspondent Carrie Johnson was listening and joins us. Good morning.

因斯基普：NPR新闻的国家司法记者嘉莉·约翰逊旁听了听证会，现在她将和我们连线。早上好。

CARRIE JOHNSON, BYLINE: Good morning, Steve.

嘉莉·约翰逊连线：早上好，史蒂夫。

INSKEEP: What else did Barr have to say about these protests?

因斯基普：有关这些抗议，巴尔还说了什么？

JOHNSON: Oh, Steve, there's so much to cover. Remember that these protests began after the police killed George Floyd in Minneapolis and Breonna Taylor in Louisville, Ky. Democrats on the panel said the vast majority of protesters are peaceful, even in Portland. But the attorney general focused on the violence, the attacks on the federal court building there. He says deputy U.S. marshals have been injured and they're tired. And he says he'd be happy if the state and local law enforcement did more so the feds could do less, while Democrats decided to show Bill Barr the video of a Navy veteran in Portland being beaten and tear-gassed. But the attorney general said most people near the court have been violent and that tear gas might have been in the air already.

约翰逊：哦，史蒂夫，内容相当多。记住，这些抗议活动始于明尼阿波利斯警方杀害了乔治·弗洛伊德和肯塔基州路易斯威尔警方杀害了布伦娜·泰勒之后。众议院司法委员会的民主党议员表示，绝大多数抗议者是和平的，即使在波特兰也是如此。但司法部长关注的是暴力事件以及当地联邦法院大楼遭到的袭击。他说，美国副执法官受伤，而且精疲力尽。他表示，如果州和地方执法部门能采取更多行动，他会感到欣慰，因为这样联邦人员就能少做些事，之后民主党人决定向威廉·巴尔播放一名海军退伍老兵在波特兰被殴打和被喷催泪瓦斯的视频。但司法部长表示，法院附近的大多数人都有暴力行为，而且当时催泪瓦斯可能已经在空中弥漫。

INSKEEP: Might have been in the air already — OK. This is, of course, just one thing that they discussed. Jerrold Nadler, the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, Democrat of New York, argued that the attorney general has been rewarding the president's friends and punishing the president's enemies. A couple of names easily come to mind — Michael Flynn, the former national security adviser. The Justice Department went to drop the case against him. The president's political adviser Roger Stone — Barr himself argued for a lighter sentence for Stone. Let's listen to some of the questioning.

因斯基普：可能已经在空中弥漫。当然，这只是辩论的其中一件事。司法委员会主席、纽约州民主党议员杰罗尔德·纳德勒认为，司法部长一直在奖励总统的朋友，惩罚总统的敌人。我们很容易想到一些名字，比如前国家安全顾问迈克尔·弗林。司法部决定撤销对他的起诉。总统的政治顾问罗杰·斯通，巴尔本人主张为斯通减刑。我们来听一下民主党的质疑。

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JERROLD NADLER: In your time at the department, you have aided and abetted the worst failings of the president.

杰罗尔德·纳德勒：在你担任司法部长期间，你协助并怂恿了总统的最严重失误。

INSKEEP: OK. That's an accusation, actually, by Nadler. How did Barr respond?

因斯基普：好。这是纳德勒提出的指控。那巴尔作何回应？

JOHNSON: The attorney general says the president has never asked him, directed him or pressured him to do anything in a criminal case. Barr says he acts independent of the White House and what he calls the mob of public opinion. Now, a couple of lawmakers asked him if he could come up with an example of a time when he weighed inon the punishment for a defendant who was not a friend of the president, referring to Roger Stone here. And the attorney general responded this way.

约翰逊：司法部长表示，总统从未要求、指示或强迫他在刑事案件中采取行动。巴尔称，他的行动独立于白宫和他所称的公众舆论暴民。多名议员问他是否可以举出例证，说明他曾就非总统朋友的被告的刑罚发表意见，这里指的是罗杰·斯通案。以下是司法部长的回应。

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BARR: What enemies have I indicted? Who — could you point to one indictment that has been under the department that you feel is unmerited, that you feel violates the rule of law? One indictment...

巴尔：我起诉了哪些敌人？你能指出你认为司法部处理不当或违反法治的起诉吗？一项起诉……

INSKEEP: Wait a minute.

因斯基普：稍等。

JOHNSON: In this hearing (ph)...

约翰逊：在这场听证会中……

INSKEEP: So he's not actually — if I can — he's not actually answering the question about whether he intervened on behalf of someone who is not the president's friend. He's kind of shifting the goalpost there, right?

因斯基普：实际上他并没有……如果可以这样说的话，他并没有回答问题，即他是否曾为不是总统朋友的人进行干预。他好像偷梁换柱了，对吧？

JOHNSON: He was asked that question twice yesterday. He never quite answered it. And in fact, it became very contentious with lawmakers from the Democratic side of the aisle interrupting Bill Barr and, by the end, Bill Barr interrupting some of the Democrats, too.

约翰逊：昨天他被问到两次这个问题。他一直没有明确回答。事实上，充满争议的是，民主党人打断了威廉·巴尔的回答，而最后巴尔也打断了一些民主党的问话。

INSKEEP: What did the attorney general have to say about the security of the election this fall?

因斯基普：司法部长对今年秋季大选的安全性有何表态？

JOHNSON: Yeah, it came up because Bill Barr once again raised questions about the security of mail-in ballots. And when Democratic lawmakers asked him to provide evidence for those concerns, he said he didn't have any other than his common sense. Voting experts don't think that that is going to be a big concern even though President Trump and Attorney General Barr have been out there making those claims in news reports and public comments now for weeks, if not months.

约翰逊：这个问题被提及的原因是，威廉·巴尔再次对邮寄选票的安全性提出质疑。当民主党议员让他为这些担忧提出证据时，他说除了常识他没有任何证据。投票专家认为，这不会成为大问题，尽管特朗普总统和司法部长巴尔一直在新闻报道和公开评论中质疑邮寄选票，这种言论他们宣称了很久，尽管没有数个月，也有数周时间了。

INSKEEP: Carrie, thanks very much.

因斯基普：嘉莉，非常谢谢你的报道。

JOHNSON: My pleasure.

约翰逊：不客气。

INSKEEP: That's NPR national justice correspondent Carrie Johnson.

因斯基普：以上是NPR新闻的国家司法记者嘉莉·约翰逊带来的报道。