英国新闻听力 适度的抑郁症对健康有益（在线收听）

Moderate Depression Might Be Good for Health

CLAUDIA HAMMOND: This is Health Check from BBC and I'm Claudia Hammond. A couple of weeks ago, a study came out suggesting that anti-depression medication works no better than sugar pills for most depressed patients. Now a new book has just come out suggesting that mild to moderate depression might in fact be good for us. Psychiatrist Paul Keedwell, the author of How Sadness Survived believes that sadness is a depression might evolve to get us to stop and take stock of our lives. When he came into the BBC studio, Paul Keedwell told me why something is distressing is the pression could in fact be useful.

PAUL KEEDWEL: From an evolutionary point of view that maybe because you are denying some fundamental archetypal needs in order to chase after some more futile goals. The most obvious example in the modern world which makes blamewide depression appears to be increasing is that people are, perhaps, chasing after material goals at the expense of good quality relationships with their friends and family kin. I am not coming down and saying it's definitely an adaptation. But I'm saying that I do believe there are some advantages and some lessons that can be learned from depression that compensate, perhaps, for the causes of depression when you are actually in that moribund state. I am not making light of the experience of depression. It's an incredibly painful experience. It's quite difficult to describe. It's like a psychic pain, if you like, and a slowing down of the brain and the body. So it's a difficult message perhaps. This one I'm putting across is a difficult message perhaps for people depressed right now. But what I'm trying to do is to reduce the stigma that attached to depression. People do actually come out of depression spontaneously in traditional communities. Perhaps, because they have the time out to really recover and they also, of course, enjoy in many cases much stronger bonds with their kid and kin.

CLAUDIA HAMMOND: So is there evidence that they actually have some inter-gain when they recover. They are actually… life is better for them in some way.

PAUL KEEDWELL: There is a scientific study, the anonymous study which followed up a group of adults aged between 18 and 64. The 165 cases produced the first study to follow people up before, during and after an absolute depression. And I think they were expecting to find that people were left in this disabled state after depression. But actually the reversal is true that in the majority of the cases they seemed to have a better quality of life after recovery from the depression and they had before the answer to the depression. So this sort of supports the evolutionary argument if you like. The main argument is that depression takes you out of this chronically persistent stressful situation, puts the brakes on when you are not doing so voluntarily. And depression really is like that. It means does put on the brakes. It's not something that is real. Then the theory goes that as a consequence of going through this introspective state where you are thinking perhaps more realistically. It takes a way to explore optimism you might have or these unrealistic expectations, makes you more aware of your limitations as well as your strength. Particularly, as you are coming out of the depression, I think that's a time of rebirth, if you like, when people start to take stock and think right. I don't want to act again and what do I need to change. And reason that depression lasts longer than ordinary sadness perhaps it's because of its forces and more radical change. We need to value depressed people because they may potentially have new insights upon recovery that they can share with the group. So I think there is that understanding, more so in saying Bandar in Uganda, the Bandar tribe in Uganda than in western societies where we don't have enough time for each other. Edheigen, the evolutionary psychologist, has a theory along with lines that because people are so solipsist, it makes much more aware of the depressed persons' needs, not just then but ongoing. So upon recovery perhaps there might be an increased awareness. It's what he calls a strike-hypothesis. So going through a depression in a community world that depends on you. It's a bit like going on strike when the employers depending on you. Just tell the employer that you want more attention, more pay, if you like, and now I'll withdraw my labor until that happens.

CLAUDIA HAMMOND: So if the pression might be useful in a long term, painfulness is in a short term. Does that mean we shouldn't trying treat it.

PAUL KEEDWELL: I'm not saying that if we take an anti-depression, for example, we are definitely switching off a helpful process. But I would say that the pressures of modern living, the pressure to get back to work quickly, to pay mortgages and sell on all. Just, the general pressure is to succeed in life now and the fast pace means that there is a temptation for people to just take the anti-depression to feel better. But not change anything about their lives and I will say that's a mistake.

CLAUDIA HAMMOND: Paul Keedwell.

适度的抑郁症对健康有益

克劳迪亚·哈蒙德：现在是BBC的《健康咨询》节目，我是克劳迪亚·哈蒙德。几个星期前，一项研究结果表明抗抑郁药物没有糖丸对抑郁症病人的治疗效果好。现在一本刚出炉的新书有一种新的观点，它认为适度的抑郁实际上对我们有益处。精神病学家保罗·基迪韦尔，《悲伤如何幸存》这本书的作者认为悲伤这种抑郁可能转化成促使我们暂时放下脚步，自我审视的契机。现在保罗·基迪韦尔来到了BBC的演播室，他将会为我们讲述在压力状态下产生的抑郁实际上是有用的。

保罗·基迪韦尔：从进化论的观点来看，抑郁可能产生的原因是你罔顾自己的基本需求而去追求虚无的目标。最明显的例子是，现代社会里，众人之矢的这种抑郁症越来越多，而这种抑郁症的产生正是由于人们牺牲了朋友和亲人关系过度追求物质目标。我并非是退而求其次，仅仅换了个说法。我要说的是我认为我们能从抑郁症的反面学到一些东西。因为正是你在生死边缘时，你才会有抑郁症。我并不是要美化抑郁症的过程。它确实是一个痛苦的经历，很难去描述。它像一种精神疾病，从大脑逐渐蔓延到身体。所以它可能是一个令人费解的讯息。对那些正在被抑郁症折磨的人来说，我要传达的讯息可能也很难理解。但是我正在尝试消除人们对抑郁症的误解。生活在传统社区的人们通常能够依靠自身的力量从抑郁症中解脱出来，可能，是因为他们有时间自我恢复，而且，在很多情况下，他们都能够享受天伦之乐。

克劳迪亚·哈蒙德：那现在有没有证据可以表明他们在痊愈时获得一些内在力量？在某些方面，他们实际上，更加幸运。

保罗·基迪韦尔：有一项匿名的科学研究，这项研究是针对一组年龄在18岁到64岁的成年人进行观察。在第一次研究中，科学家们观察了这165个人在抑郁症前，抑郁症中，以及抑郁症后的一些行为。我想他们是希望发现人们在抑郁症后的无助状态。但是事情上，结论恰恰相反。在这个案例中的大部分人他们在抑郁症痊愈后的生活状态比抑郁症之前好。而且他们拥有了如何处理抑郁症的方法。所以你看，这个案例是支持进化论的观点的。抑郁症的主要观点是让你从长期的压力状态中解脱出来，在你不情愿的状态帮你踩住刹车。事实上，抑郁症的确是那样。它并不是真的要踩住刹车。这并不是一个实物。这个理论实际上是要你通过自审能够以更加客观更加实际的眼光看待自己。它为你提供一个乐观的方法，让你认清楚那些不切实际的幻想，意识到自己的极限和力量所在。事实上，当你从抑郁症走出来时，当你开始释放自己，正确思考时，我觉得那是一种重生。我不要在重蹈覆辙，我要改变。抑郁症比普通的悲伤持续的时间长是因为它有些强制性，更为激进。我们必须重视那些抑郁病患者，因为可能对如何痊愈有更深的见解，而且他们可以与我们分享。我认为我们需要去了解，就像了解乌干达的斯里巴加湾市一样，乌干达的巴加湾的部落和西方社会都没有好好了解彼此。进化论心理学家爱德海根有一些理论，他认为人类都是唯我主义者，这就使人们更加关注抑郁患者的需求，以前是，现在也是。对于痊愈者关注也越来越多。他称之为罢工假说。所以在一个团体社会里，如何摆脱抑郁是取决于你的。它就像一个罢工，老板都看你的决定。直接告诉老板，你要更多的重视，要加薪，如果你愿意，他不答应你就不干了。

克劳迪亚·哈蒙德：如果从长远看来，压力是有用的，痛苦是暂时的，那是否意味着我们不用去尝试治疗它呢？

保罗·基迪韦尔：我指的不是这个，举例来说，如果我们服用抗抑郁症的药片，我们就完全切断了处理抑郁的一切方法。但是我要说，现代生活给我们带来的压力，比如工作紧张，偿还贷款，卖空一切……总的压力就是要过上成功的生活。而快速的生活节奏迫使人们去服用抗抑郁的药物来缓解压力。但是这种方式并不能从根本上解决问题，只是一个错误。

克劳迪亚·哈蒙德：现在跟我们在一起的保罗·基迪韦尔。