PBS高端访谈:蓬佩奥探访戈兰高地和西岸定居点（在线收听）

Judy Woodruff: Today, in the Middle East, Mike Pompeo became the first secretary of state to visit the Golan Heights and a settlement in the West Bank. He also announced major shifts in U.S. policy. To discuss all this, I'm joined by our Nick Schifrin. Hi, Nick. So, first of all, tell us, what did Secretary Pompeo say, and what did he do today?

Nick Schifrin: Yes, Judy, the first unprecedented step that Pompeo took was about travel. As you just said, he visited a settlement in the occupied West Bank with a winery that last year named a vintage after him. Israel calls the settlement legal. Palestinians, who own the land, call it stolen. And then he took an Israeli military helicopter up to the Golan Heights. That's his wife right next to him. He got a tour from the Israeli military along the Syrian border. Israel annexed the Golan after capturing it the 1967 war. That was rejected by the international community. But the Trump administration recognized it last year.

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo: You can't stand here and stare out at what's across the border and deny the central thing that President Trump recognized that previous presidents had refused to do, that this is a part of Israel, and a central part of Israel.

Nick Schifrin: The next steps he took were on policy. He said that any food produced on most settlements in the occupied West Bank should be labeled made in Israel. That changes decades of policy that required the labeling of the West Bank. And he also embraced the Israeli government's argument that the boycott divestment sanctions movement, or BDS, was anti-Semitic. And he pledged to cut funding for any group that supports the BDS. Overall, this was another attempt by the secretary of state to endorse Israel's arguments about land and legality and minimize Palestinian claims to statehood and what the international community considers illegal actions by Israel. Judy, I talked to the head of the BDS movement earlier. He said that he was trying to change Israeli policy through economic pressure. And he accused Pompeo of conflating anti-Semitism with legitimate criticism of Israel and advocacy of Palestinian rights, which he said should be protected by the First Amendment.

Judy Woodruff: And, Nick, we're down to almost the last two months of this administration. So, what's the actual impact of all this?

Nick Schifrin: Yes, most likely, not very much. There are only 62 days left before inauguration. It's unclear how much the administration can get done on labeling or the BDS in that time. And many of the administration's moves when it comes to Israel and the Palestinians have been directives or executive orders. Those can be easily reversed by president-elect Biden on January 20. But what can't be reversed, Judy, is the photo opportunities that this trip gave Mike Pompeo ,if he were to choose to run for office, for example, president in 2024.

Judy Woodruff: So, maybe several meanings behind all this. Nick Schifrin, we thank you.

Nick Schifrin: Thank you.

朱迪·伍德拉夫：今天，在中东，迈克·蓬佩奥成为第一位访问戈兰高地和西岸定居点的国务卿。他还宣布了美国政策的重大转变。为了讨论这一切，尼克·席夫林接受我们的采访。嗨，尼克。

首先，告诉我们，蓬佩奥部长说了什么，他今天做了什么？

尼克·希夫林：是的，朱迪，蓬佩奥迈出的第一步是旅行。正如你刚才所说，他访问了被占领的西岸的一个定居点，那里有一个去年以他的名字命名的酒庄。以色列称定居点合法。拥有这片土地的巴勒斯坦人称之为失窃。然后他带着一架以色列军用直升机去了戈兰高地。他的妻子就在他旁边。他得到了以色列军方在叙利亚边境的旅行。以色列在1967年的战争中占领了戈兰。这遭到国际社会的拒绝。但特朗普政府去年承认了这一点。

国务卿蓬佩奥：你不能站在这里盯着边境那边的东西，否认特朗普总统认识到的核心问题，即前几任总统都拒绝这样做，这是以色列的一部分，也是以色列的中心部分。

尼克·希夫林：他采取的下一步措施是在政策上。他说，在被占领的西岸的大多数定居点上生产的任何食品都应该贴上“以色列制造”的标签。这改变了几十年来要求给西岸贴上标签的政策。他还支持以色列政府的观点，即抵制撤资制裁运动（BDS）是反犹太的。他还承诺削减对任何支持BDS的组织的资助。总的来说，这是国务卿又一次试图赞同以色列关于土地和合法性的论点，尽量减少巴勒斯坦人对国家地位的要求以及国际社会认为以色列的非法行动。朱迪，我早些时候和BDS运动的负责人谈过了。他说，他试图通过经济压力改变以色列的政策。他还指责蓬佩奥将反犹太主义与对以色列的合法批评和对巴勒斯坦权利的倡导混为一谈，他说巴勒斯坦的权利应该受到第一修正案的保护。

朱迪·伍德拉夫：尼克，我们差不多要到本届政府的最后两个月了。那么，这一切的实际影响是什么？

尼克·希夫林：是的，很有可能，不太可能。离就职典礼只有62天了。目前还不清楚政府在这段时间内能在标签和BDS上做多少工作。在以色列和巴勒斯坦问题上，政府的许多举措都是指令或行政命令。当选总统拜登在1月20日很容易扭转这种局面。但朱迪，不能逆转的是，这次旅行给了迈克·蓬佩奥拍照的机会，如果他选择竞选总统，比如2024年的总统。

朱迪·伍德拉夫：所以，也许这背后有几个含义。尼克·希夫林，我们谢谢你。

尼克·希夫林：非常感谢。