PBS高端访谈:选举人团投票即将开始（在线收听）

Hari Sreenivasan: For more on the President's continued baseless claims of victory, the Electoral College and the transition to a new presidential administration, Special Correspondent Jeff Greenfield joins us now from Santa Barbara. All right, Jeff, here we are, the President still contends that he did not lose this election, that it was rigged against him with no evidence. Tomorrow, 538 electors are supposed to meet. That is supposed to be the ultimate decision on making Joe Biden our next president by January 20th. Any last-minute twists?

斯雷瓦塞尼：有关总统继续毫无根据地宣称胜利、选举团和向新总统政府过渡的更多信息，特约记者杰夫·格林菲尔德现在从圣巴巴拉加入我们。好吧，杰夫，嗯嗯，总统仍然声称他没有输掉这次选举，选举是在没有证据的情况下对他进行的操纵。明天，538名选民将开会。这应该是在1月20日前让乔·拜登成为下一任总统的最终决定。最后一分钟有什么变化吗？

Jeff Greenfield: Once they cast their votes, there's one more step yet to go, and that is on January 6th, the new Congress meets in joint session to formally accept the state-by-state returns. If one member of the House and one member of the Senate objects to any state's report, the Congress retreats to their respective chambers, they debate for two hours and vote. Now, given a Democratic House and enough Republican senators who already said 'enough,' the outcome is certain, although with Mike Pence as the presiding officer, Vice President, there could be further glitches. But I do really think that, formally, January 6 should end it and Biden will be officially the president-elect.

杰夫·格林菲尔德：一旦他们投了票，还有一步要走，那就是1月6日，新一届国会召开联席会议，正式接受各州的回报。如果一名众议院议员和一名参议院议员反对任何一个州的报告，国会就退到各自的众议院，他们辩论两个小时并投票表决。现在，考虑到民主党众议院和足够多的共和党参议员已经说“够了”，结果是肯定的，尽管迈克·彭斯担任会议主持人、副总统，可能还会出现更多的小问题。但我真的认为，正式地说，1月6日应该结束，拜登将正式成为当选总统。

Hari Sreenivasan: At that point, do Republicans say, fine, Joe Biden is the next president?

斯雷瓦塞尼：那么，共和党人会说，好吧，乔·拜登是下一任总统吗？

Jeff Greenfield: On Earth one, I would say that, that's right. But you now have just today a CBS News poll showed something like 82 percent of Republicans or Trump voters think Biden was not legitimately elected. And a majority of Trump voters want Congress to keep fighting. So what you have here is a situation where we had 126 members of the House, Republicans, a majority, and a majority of Republican state attorneys-general asked the Supreme Court to invalidate millions of votes and literally turn those, those states over to the state legislature so that Trump could be reelected. Under those circumstances, I don't see any reason to think that you're going to find a, uh, 'OK, it's over. Let's all cooperate.'

杰夫·格林菲尔德：在地球一号，我会说，这是对的。但是，就在今天，哥伦比亚广播公司的民调显示，82%的共和党人或特朗普选民认为拜登没有合法当选。而大多数特朗普选民希望国会继续战斗。所以你们现在的情况是，我们有126名众议院议员，共和党人占多数，大多数共和党州检察长要求最高法院宣布数百万票无效，并将这些州交给州议会，以便特朗普能够连任。在这种情况下，我看不出有任何理由认为你会发现，呃，'好吧，结束了。让我们一起合作吧。

Hari Sreenivasan: So why? Why did that happen?

斯雷瓦塞尼：那为什么呢？为什么会这样？

Jeff Greenfield: You now have, deep in the Republican Party, a belief that expanding the right to vote, making it easy to vote, cost Trump the election. The mail-in ballots, the way you could correct signature verification problems, more drop off places. It was the argument in the Supreme Court by the Texas Attorney General that only the state legislatures could do that, that election officials exceeded their power. And what I think you're going to see is Republicans being very, very careful that in the next election, they're going to make it harder to vote, because I think there's a belief, as I said, that it was too easy to vote this time. And the people who took advantage of that were, by and large, Democratic voters. And Republican state legislatures, they're just going to change the laws as much as they can, and their power is pretty complete to just tighten the ability to vote.

杰夫·格林菲尔德：你现在在共和党深处有一种信念，那就是扩大投票权，让投票变得容易，会让特朗普输掉选举。邮寄选票，你可以纠正签名验证问题的方式，更多的投递地点。德克萨斯州总检察长在最高法院的论点是，只有州立法机构才能这样做，选举官员越权了。我想你们会看到，共和党人非常非常小心，在下一次选举中，他们会让投票更加困难，因为我认为，正如我所说的，这次投票太容易了。而从中获益的人基本上都是民主党选民。共和党的州议会，他们会尽可能多地修改法律，他们的权力已经相当完备，只会收紧投票权。

Hari Sreenivasan: Where does this put the popular vote, in the grand scheme of things?

斯雷瓦塞尼：在这宏大的计划中，这把民意放在了哪里？

Jeff Greenfield: From 1952 to 1988, Republicans won the popular vote seven out of ten times. Since 1988, they've only won it once. It does seem that the Republican Party now believes it cannot win the popular vote and it has turn to the Electoral College and those close battleground states and tighter voting laws to have a chance at the presidency. Again, it's quite unusual in American politics and if I may say so, quite disheartening.

杰夫·格林菲尔德：从1952年到1988年，共和党十有八九赢得了民意支持。自1988年以来，他们只赢过一次。看来共和党现在确实认为自己无法赢得民意支持，它已经求助于选举团和那些竞争激烈的州和更严格的投票法，才有机会当选总统。再说一次，这在美国政治中是很不寻常的，如果我可以这么说的话，那是相当令人沮丧的。

Hari Sreenivasan: Just this week, we also saw a tension between Congress and the President over defense spending reauthorization. Why is this significant?

斯雷瓦塞尼：就在本周，我们还看到了国会和总统在国防开支重新授权问题上的紧张关系。为什么这很重要？

Jeff Greenfield: Well, it's significant because this is the one time when the Congress may override a Trump veto. It hasn't happened in four years. Trump is saying, I'm going to veto this bill unless you change the law that limits liability of major telecommunications companies like Google and Facebook. And, I want the bill vetoed because I don't like the idea of changing the names of military installations named after Confederate. By and large, there are solid majorities always in Congress that support the troops, get this bill passed so that we're not left defenseless. And I think this would be the one time, particularly since Trump is pretty much certain to not be president for very longer, that the Republicans in Congress are willing to say, OK, on this one, we're not going along with you.

杰夫·格林菲尔德：嗯，这很重要，因为这一次国会可能会推翻特朗普的否决。已经四年没发生过了。特朗普说，除非你修改限制谷歌和脸书等主要电信公司责任的法律，否则我将否决这项法案。而且，我希望法案被否决，因为我不喜欢改变以邦联命名的军事设施的名称。总的来说，国会里总是有绝对多数的人支持军队，让这项法案获得通过，这样我们就不会手无寸铁。我认为这是唯一一次，特别是特朗普肯定不会再当总统了，国会的共和党人愿意说，好吧，在这一次，我们不会同意你的。

Hari Sreenivasan: Jeff Greenfield joining us from Santa Barbara, thanks so much.

斯雷瓦塞尼：杰夫格林菲尔德从圣巴巴拉加入我们，非常感谢。

Jeff Greenfield: Thank you, Hari.

杰夫·格林菲尔德：谢谢你，哈里。