美国国家公共电台 NPR 特朗普二次弹劾被判无罪（在线收听）

Last night, President Joe Biden released a statement reacting to the impeachment vote in the Senate, saying, quote, "this sad chapter in our history has reminded us that democracy is fragile." He went on to say this — each one of us has a duty and responsibility as Americans and especially as leaders to defend the truth and defeat the lies. Joining us now is NPR national political correspondent Mara Liasson. Good morning.

昨晚，美国总统乔·拜登发表了一份声明，对参议院的弹劾投票作出回应，他表示，“我们历史上的这一悲惨篇章提醒我们，民主是脆弱的。”他还表示，作为美国人，特别是作为领导人，我们每个人都有责任捍卫真相，战胜谎言。下面NPR新闻的国家政治记者玛拉·利亚森将和我们连线。早上好。

MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Good morning.

玛拉·利亚森连线：早上好。

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I'll put the same question to you that I just put to the congresswoman. With Trump acquitted as expected, what did this impeachment trial accomplish?

加西亚-纳瓦罗：我将向你提出我刚才向国会女议员提出的同样问题。在特朗普如预期那样获判无罪的情况下，这次弹劾审判有何成果？

LIASSON: I think the impeachment managers did accomplish creating a narrative of how the Trump presidency will be remembered. They kind of wrote the last chapter of the history books of the Trump administration, where the president encouraged a mob to impede the peaceful transfer of power. I think that will probably stick.

利亚森：我认为弹劾经理人确实完成了使特朗普总统会如何被记住的故事。他们写下了特朗普政府历史书的最后一章，即总统鼓动暴徒阻碍权力的和平转移。我想这可能会持续下去。

What they didn't accomplish was to convict and prevent Trump from running again. And that left the impression that Congress as a whole — even though a majority of senators voted to convict, Congress as a whole doesn't think it's terrible when the president encourages his supporters to try to overturn a free and fair election, that Congress thinks that's OK when a president does that, even when they themselves were attacked.

他们没有做到的是定罪，而且没能阻止特朗普再次参选。这给整个国会留下了这样的印象：尽管大多数参议员投票支持宣判有罪，但当总统动励其支持者推翻一场自由公正的选举时，整个国会并不认为这是可怕的事情，当总统这么做时，国会认为这没关系，即使他们自己也受到了攻击。

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Mara, I'm going to play some more of Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, who made this point about the former president's actions and the arguments made by his allies.

加西亚-纳瓦罗：玛拉，我想多谈谈少数党领袖米奇·麦康奈尔，他对前总统的行为及总统盟友的论点发表了看法。

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

（录音档案）

MITCH MCCONNELL: Anyone who decries his awful behavior is accused of insulting millions of voters. That's an absurd deflection. Seventy-four million Americans did not invade the Capitol. Hundreds of rioters did. Seventy-four million Americans did not engineer the campaign of disinformation and rage that provoked it. One person did — just one.

米奇·麦康奈尔：任何谴责他糟糕行为的人都被指控侮辱数百万选民。这是荒谬的偏差。7400万美国人没有入侵国会大厦。入侵国会的是数百名暴乱者。7400万美国人没有策划造谣和激起愤怒的运动。做这件事的只有一个人。

GARCIA-NAVARRO: It's an extraordinary statement by Mitch McConnell, yet he voted to acquit. Help us understand this calculation.

加西亚-纳瓦罗：这是米奇·麦康奈尔发表的一份非同寻常的声明，但他投票支持宣告特朗普无罪。请帮助我们理解他的想法。

LIASSON: Yeah, it really was a huge disconnect. He explained why Trump was guilty, then he turned around and voted that he was innocent. He said this was a disgraceful dereliction of duty. Remember, McConnell is the one who refused to hold the trial while Trump was in office, then turned around and said it was unconstitutional to try a president who was out of office. So it sounds like McConnell's calculations are pretty similar to House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy, who was trying to make the Republican tent big enough to hold Trump critic Liz Cheney and QAnon conspiracy theorist Marjorie Taylor Greene. It shows you that Trump still has a very firm grip on his party. As his lawyers reminded the senators, quote, "no one in this chamber is anxious to have a primary challenge," which is what Trump has threatened to do to any Republicans who oppose him. So I think those are McConnell's political calculations. He's trying to have it both ways.

利亚森：是的，这真的是严重脱节。他解释了特朗普有罪的原因，然后转身投票支持特朗普无罪。他说这是可耻的失职行为。记住，麦康奈尔就是那个在特朗普执政期间拒绝举行审判，而且称审判已卸任总统这一举动违宪的人。听起来，麦康奈尔的打算与众议院共和党领袖凯文·麦卡锡的非常相似，他试图让共和党团体大到足以容纳特朗普批评者利兹·切尼和卡农阴谋论者马乔里·泰勒·格林。这表明特朗普对其政党仍有着非常坚定的控制。正如他的律师提醒参议员的那样，“这个议院里没有人急于提出初步挑战”，这正是特朗普威胁要对任何反对他的共和党人做的事情。因此我认为这是麦康奈尔的政治算盘。他想两全其美。

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah. Seven Republican senators did not see it as McConnell did — Mitt Romney, Ben Sasse, Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski. It's not surprising they voted to convict. It was always clear they were going to do so — but also Bill Cassidy, Pat Toomey and Richard Burr.

加西亚-纳瓦罗：好。七名共和党参议员没有像麦康奈尔那样看待此事，这七人包括米特·罗姆尼、本·萨塞、苏珊·柯林斯、丽莎·穆考斯基。他们投票支持宣判有罪不足为奇。很明显，他们会这么做，但同样反水的还有比尔·卡西迪、帕特·图米和理查德·伯尔。

LIASSON: That's right. I think every — these people broke with their party. But remember, of those seven Republican senators, only one of them, Murkowski of Alaska, faces reelection in 2022. Two others, Toomey and Burr, are retiring. And three of them — Susan Collins, Ben Sasse and Bill Cassidy — were reelected just last year. Mitt Romney doesn't face reelection until 2024. So not huge political risks on the part of these seven, but still, seven is more Republican votes than most people were expecting.

利亚森：没错。我想这七个人都与他们的政党决裂了。但请记住，在这七位共和党参议员中，只有阿拉斯加州参议员穆考斯基将在2022年面临连任。参议员图米和伯尔即将退休。其中三位——苏珊·柯林斯、本·萨塞和比尔·卡西迪——去年刚刚连任。米特·罗姆尼要到2024年才会面临连任。因此，这七个人的政治风险并不大，但他们的支持率仍比大多数人预期的要高。

GARCIA-NAVARRO: And just briefly, McConnell also made this point. The former president is still legally liable for actions taken while he was in office. What does that mean for any plans Trump has politically?

加西亚-纳瓦罗：简单地说，麦康奈尔也提出了这一点。即这位前总统仍然对他在任期间所采取的行动负有法律责任。这对特朗普的任何政治计划意味着什么？

LIASSON: Well, that's true. He said former presidents are not immune from criminal prosecution or civil suits. There are cases in Florida and New York. But this leaves so many questions unanswered. What will count more over time, the acquittal or the bipartisan vote? What happens to the Republican Party over time? It's deeply, deeply split over this. It's — Republican voters are leaving the party. Will that trend continue? Their approval ratings are going down. And we don't know what Trump plans to do and what kind of hold he's going to have on his party and for how long.

利亚森：没错。他表示，前总统不能免于刑事起诉或民事诉讼。佛罗里达州和纽约州都有诉讼需要解决。但这让很多问题悬而未决。随着时间的推移，无罪释放两党投票哪个会更加重要？随着时间的推移，共和党会发生什么？在这方面存在严重分歧。共和党选民将脱离政党。这种趋势还会继续吗？他们的支持率在下降。而我们尚不清楚特朗普计划做什么，他将对自己的政党有何种的控制，以及控制多久。

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Indeed. He's talking about forming possibly a third party. That is...

加西亚-纳瓦罗：的确。他说的是组建第三大政党。那是……

LIASSON: Well, he doesn't have to do that. He's got the Republican Party. The party would be formed by his opponents.

利亚森：他不必那么做。他得到了共和党的支持。第三大政党可能会由他的对手组建。

GARCIA-NAVARRO: That's NPR national political correspondent Mara Liasson. Mara, thank you, as always.

加西亚-纳瓦罗：以上是NPR新闻的国家政治记者玛拉·利亚森带来的报道。玛拉，谢谢你。

LIASSON: You're welcome.

利亚森：不客气。