华盛顿邮报 2023年将会看到美国人因堕胎而入狱？(2)（在线收听）

    Caroline spoke to my co-host, Elahe Izadi. She is going to pick things up from here.

    卡洛琳采访了我的搭档埃拉·伊扎迪。她会从这里开始接着谈。

    Caroline, I know you've been speaking with anti-abortion leaders about this post-Roe moment.

    卡洛琳，我知道你一直在和反堕胎领袖谈论后罗伊案时刻。

    You know, in many states, there are laws that ban or limit abortion, but abortions are still happening in those places, often by way of illegal abortion pills.

    在许多州，都有禁止或限制堕胎的法律，但这些地方仍然有堕胎，通常是通过非法药物进行堕胎。

    So I wonder, how do these anti-abortion activists feel about that?

    我想知道，这些反堕胎的活动人士对此作何感想?

    They're furious. Now, I want to drive home the point that we really don't know what the numbers are.

    他们很愤怒。现在，我想强调的是我们不知道这些数字是多少。

    And I have had several, in the course of this reporting, several anti-abortion advocates say to me that they are concerned that just as many abortions are happening, if not more abortions are happening now because of these pill networks that are really growing in just -- growing faster than I think a lot of people expected.

    在这篇报道的过程中，有几位反堕胎的倡导者对我说，他们担心很多堕胎正在发生，因为这些堕胎药物网络正在快速增长——增长速度比很多人预期的要快。

    And they're really upset because they saw this. I mean, it was. It was a landmark victory.

    他们看到这个现象真的很生气。我是说，确实如此。这是一个里程碑式的胜利。

    It was a victory beyond what most of them thought was possible in their lifetimes.

    这是一场他们大多数人认为有生之年不可能取得的胜利。

    You know, most of them thought, "Okay, Row was overturned. That's directly going to lead to fewer abortions that happen in the United States."他们中的大多数人认为，“好吧，罗伊诉韦德案被推翻了。这将直接导致美国堕胎的减少。”

    And because of these networks, we don't know that that has happened.

    因为这些堕胎药网络，我们不知道这种情况已经发生。

    And I'd imagine they're also furious because these laws aren't being enforced.

    我想他们也会很愤怒，因为这些法律没有得到执行。

    Absolutely. I interviewed over 30 people for this story, and I really wanted to know, how do anti-abortion advocates feel about exactly what you just asked?

    绝对会生气。为了完成这篇报道，我采访了30多人，我真的很想知道，反堕胎倡导者对你刚才的问题有什么看法?

    Are they happy with just, you know, the abortion bans being on the books or is there a real driving force for them to go further and really crack down and enforce?

    他们对有记载以来的堕胎禁令感到满意吗? 他们是否真正有动力让这些法律走得更远，真正打击堕胎，让法律得以执行?

    And I talked to Jonathan Mitchell about that question.

    我和乔纳森·米切尔谈过这个问题。

    He is a anti-abortion lawyer in Texas, very well-known as the person who was really the architect of the novel Texas abortion ban that took effect last year, many months before Roe was overturned.

    他是德克萨斯州的一名反堕胎律师，众所周知，他是该州新版堕胎禁令的设计者，该禁令于去年生效，几个月后，罗伊诉韦德案被推翻。

    And he told me that there could be a splintering within the anti-abortion movement between the people who genuinely, deep in their bones oppose abortion and feel that it's murder and the people for whom supporting an abortion ban is a political move.

    他告诉我，在反堕胎运动中可能会出现分裂，一部分人发自内心地反对堕胎，认为这是谋杀，另一部分人则认为支持堕胎禁令是一种政治举动。