美国国家公共电台 NPR--Judge is expected to rule Vice President Pence must testify in Jan. 6 attack probe

Judge is expected to rule Vice¹ President Pence must testify in Jan. 6 attack probe

Transcript²

NPR's Michel Martin talks to former federal prosecutor³ Elie Honig about reports that former VP Mike Pence must testify before a grand jury about his conversations with Donald Trump⁴ ahead of Jan. 6.

MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:

Former Vice President Mike Pence will have to testify to a grand jury in the Justice Department's ongoing⁵ probe of the January 6 attack. That's the ruling of a federal judge, according to multiple media reports. Pence must testify about conversations he had with former President Trump leading up to the attack on the Capitol. But in the ruling, which remained sealed, the judge reportedly also said Pence can decline questions related to January 6 itself. So what does this mean for the DOJ's investigation⁶? Joining us now to help us understand this is former federal and state prosecutor Elie Honig.

Mr. Honig, welcome. Good morning. Thanks for joining us.

ELIE HONIG: Good to be with you. This is a fascinating story, a first in some ways. So happy to talk to you about it.

MARTIN: Well, thanks. So can you help me understand something? Without knowing the exact wording of the ruling, which remains⁷ sealed, as we said, can you clear this up? What is the judge saying Pence must talk about? And what is he saying he can refuse to talk about?

HONIG: So it may help understand that if we look at the legal arguments that were made here. So the Justice Department special counsel, Jack⁸ Smith, subpoenaed¹⁰ Mike Pence for his testimony¹¹. There were actually two objections that were raised. Donald Trump objected sort of from the outside. He's not a party to this subpoena⁹. But he came in and said, no, I don't want my former vice president testifying, on the basis of executive privilege, meaning this was a conversation between me and him in office. It shouldn't come out. The court rejected that. And courts will almost always reject that in the context of a criminal grand jury subpoena, which this is.

Separately, Mike Pence himself argued this sort of obscure constitutional provision called the Speech or Debate Clause, and that says that members of Congress cannot be subpoenaed by an outside entity¹² about anything to do with their legislative¹³ work. Mike Pence said, well, as vice president, I was the president of the Senate. You know, the vice president casts the tie-breaking vote, presides over things like counting the electoral ballots¹⁴. And the court actually said, yes, you count under the Speech and Debate Clause, and as a result of that, you don't have to answer questions about what you did in your job as Senate president - so standing¹⁵ up there on that dais, counting up the vote.

So the way I read it, the way I understand it is Pence can be questioned about essentially¹⁶ everything leading up to the actual day of January 6 and perhaps even some of the activities on January 6, but not, what did you do when you were standing up there on the dais and it came down time for you to count up the electoral votes? But all the lead-up, all the meetings with Trump leading up, I think, are in play here.

MARTIN: How big of a deal is this reported ruling?

HONIG: Well, it's a huge deal for prosecutors¹⁷ because now they get to sit there and bring Mike Pence in under oath in front of a grand jury, in front of 23 civilians¹⁸, and ask him questions. And he has to answer under penalty of perjury¹⁹, again, with that one limitation. But if I'm a prosecutor here, I would want to know all the meetings that he had with Donald Trump. And we know - Mike Pence has spoken about and written about several crucial meetings that he had with Trump in the days leading up to January 6.

I would want more depth and more detail than he said in his book or he said publicly. But I would want to know specifically, did Donald Trump pressure you? What exactly did Trump say to you? Did Trump acknowledge that he knew he lost the election? Did he say something else? Did he threaten you in any way? I would want to go through all of that. What advice were you getting from your people? I think that's crucial to Jack Smith, the special counsel's, investigation of January 6.

MARTIN: Realistically, though, how much more do prosecutors expect to learn? I mean, the man wrote a 500-plus-page memoir²⁰, as you just alluded²¹ to. Is there really more to find out? Is it possible that there isn't more to find out?

HONIG: It's a great question because not only did Mike Pence write his book and not only has he spoken about some of this stuff publicly, but many of his aides have testified, including his chief of staff, Marc Short. But the answer is twofold. First of all, as a prosecutor, you need Mike Pence's testimony on record, in front of the grand jury, under oath. You need to - if you're going to indict²² or use that information in any way, you can't just read his book; you have to hear it from the actual witness.

You also want to know what he might say defensively, as a prosecutor. What if he says something harmful to your case, helpful to Donald Trump? You want to know that in advance. The other thing is, as a prosecutor, you want to probe. You don't want to just take his book, as he's fashioned it, at face value. You want to be able to follow up and dig in and perhaps challenge that testimony. So there may not be any shocking new revelations. There may be. But as a prosecutor, you absolutely want him under oath, in front of a grand jury.

MARTIN: And forgive me if I'm asking you to speculate, but is it possible that he might plead the Fifth?

HONIG: It is legally and constitutionally possible Mike Pence, like any person, can claim that his testimony might be used to incriminate him. I'm not sure Mike Pence has any actual basis for that, unlike some of the other players. I don't know that Mike Pence did anything that we know about publicly that might be criminal. But if he did do that, then prosecutors actually have a countermove available where they can immunize somebody who takes the Fifth - meaning, OK, you've taken the Fifth; we're not going to use your testimony against you, but now you have to testify, and we get to use your testimony in the trial of somebody else. If that happens, he has to testify. You don't have an option. Even if you don't want immunity²³, if you get immunized, you have to testify.

MARTIN: That is former federal prosecutor Elie Honig. Elie, thanks so much for talking to us today.

HONIG: Thanks so much.

1 vice   

n.坏事；恶习；[pl.]台钳，老虎钳；adj.副的

参考例句：

• He guarded himself against vice.他避免染上坏习惯。
• They are sunk in the depth of vice.他们堕入了罪恶的深渊。

2 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

3 prosecutor   

n.起诉人；检察官，公诉人

参考例句：

• The defender argued down the prosecutor at the court.辩护人在法庭上驳倒了起诉人。
• The prosecutor would tear your testimony to pieces.检查官会把你的证言驳得体无完肤。

4 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

5 ongoing   

adj.进行中的，前进的

参考例句：

• The problem is ongoing.这个问题尚未解决。
• The issues raised in the report relate directly to Age Concern's ongoing work in this area.报告中提出的问题与“关心老人”组织在这方面正在做的工作有直接的关系。

6 investigation   

n.调查，调查研究

参考例句：

• In an investigation,a new fact became known, which told against him.在调查中新发现了一件对他不利的事实。
• He drew the conclusion by building on his own investigation.他根据自己的调查研究作出结论。

7 remains   

n.剩余物，残留物；遗体，遗迹

参考例句：

• He ate the remains of food hungrily.他狼吞虎咽地吃剩余的食物。
• The remains of the meal were fed to the dog.残羹剩饭喂狗了。

8 jack   

n.插座，千斤顶，男人；v.抬起，提醒，扛举；n.（Jake）杰克

参考例句：

• I am looking for the headphone jack.我正在找寻头戴式耳机插孔。
• He lifted the car with a jack to change the flat tyre.他用千斤顶把车顶起来换下瘪轮胎。

9 subpoena   

n.（法律）传票；v.传讯

参考例句：

• He was brought up to court with a subpoena.他接到传讯，来到法庭上。
• Select committees have the power to subpoena witnesses.特别委员会有权传唤证人。

10 subpoenaed   

v.（用传票）传唤（某人）( subpoena的过去式和过去分词 )

参考例句：

• The court subpoenaed her to appear as a witness. 法庭传唤她出庭作证。
• The finance director is subpoenaed by prosecution. 财务经理被检查机关传讯。 来自《简明英汉词典》

11 testimony   

n.证词；见证，证明

参考例句：

• The testimony given by him is dubious.他所作的证据是可疑的。
• He was called in to bear testimony to what the police officer said.他被传入为警官所说的话作证。

12 entity   

n.实体，独立存在体，实际存在物

参考例句：

• The country is no longer one political entity.这个国家不再是一个统一的政治实体了。
• As a separate legal entity,the corporation must pay taxes.作为一个独立的法律实体，公司必须纳税。

13 legislative   

n.立法机构，立法权；adj.立法的，有立法权的

参考例句：

• Congress is the legislative branch of the U.S. government.国会是美国政府的立法部门。
• Today's hearing was just the first step in the legislative process.今天的听证会只是展开立法程序的第一步。

14 ballots   

n.投票表决( ballot的名词复数 )；选举；选票；投票总数v.（使）投票表决( ballot的第三人称单数 )

参考例句：

• They're counting the ballots. 他们正在计算选票。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• The news of rigged ballots has rubbed off much of the shine of their election victory. 他们操纵选票的消息使他们在选举中获得的胜利大为减色。 来自《简明英汉词典》

15 standing   

n.持续，地位；adj.永久的，不动的，直立的，不流动的

参考例句：

• After the earthquake only a few houses were left standing.地震过后只有几幢房屋还立着。
• They're standing out against any change in the law.他们坚决反对对法律做任何修改。

16 essentially   

adv.本质上，实质上，基本上

参考例句：

• Really great men are essentially modest.真正的伟人大都很谦虚。
• She is an essentially selfish person.她本质上是个自私自利的人。

17 prosecutors   

检举人( prosecutor的名词复数 )； 告发人； 起诉人； 公诉人

参考例句：

• In some places,public prosecutors are elected rather than appointed. 在有些地方，检察官是经选举而非任命产生的。 来自口语例句
• You've been summoned to the Prosecutors' Office, 2 days later. 你在两天以后被宣到了检察官的办公室。

18 civilians   

平民，百姓( civilian的名词复数 )； 老百姓

参考例句：

• the bloody massacre of innocent civilians 对无辜平民的血腥屠杀
• At least 300 civilians are unaccounted for after the bombing raids. 遭轰炸袭击之后，至少有300名平民下落不明。

19 perjury   

n.伪证；伪证罪

参考例句：

• You'll be punished if you procure the witness to commit perjury.如果你诱使证人作伪证，你要受罚的。
• She appeared in court on a perjury charge.她因被指控做了伪证而出庭受审。

20 memoir   

n.[pl.]回忆录，自传；记事录

参考例句：

• He has just published a memoir in honour of his captain.他刚刚出了一本传记来纪念他的队长。
• In her memoir,the actress wrote about the bittersweet memories of her first love.在那个女演员的自传中，她写到了自己苦乐掺半的初恋。

21 alluded   

提及，暗指( allude的过去式和过去分词 )

参考例句：

• In your remarks you alluded to a certain sinister design. 在你的谈话中，你提到了某个阴谋。
• She also alluded to her rival's past marital troubles. 她还影射了对手过去的婚姻问题。

22 indict   

v.起诉，控告，指控

参考例句：

• You can't indict whole people for the crudeness of a few.您不能因少数人的粗暴行为就控诉整个民族。
• I can indict you for abducting high school student.我可以告你诱拐中学生。

23 immunity   

n.优惠；免除；豁免，豁免权

参考例句：

• The law gives public schools immunity from taxation.法律免除公立学校的纳税义务。
• He claims diplomatic immunity to avoid being arrested.他要求外交豁免以便避免被捕。