美国国家公共电台 NPR--The Trump indictment remains under seal so there is a lot we don't know

The Trump¹ indictment² remains³ under seal so there is a lot we don't know

Transcript⁴

NPR's Sacha Pfeiffer talks to Matthew Galluzzo, a former prosecutor⁵ in the New York County DA's office, about the Manhattan grand jury indictment of former President Donald Trump.

SACHA PFEIFFER, HOST:

Now let's turn to Matthew Galluzzo. He's a former prosecutor in the Manhattan DA's office. Matthew, good morning.

MATTHEW GALLUZZO: Good morning.

PFEIFFER: If you had been in the position to advise the prosecutors⁶ who've brought this case - and maybe you were - would you have recommended they do this?

GALLUZZO: Well, I most certainly was not. I'll start by saying that. But if I had been - listen; I don't know what exactly the evidence is in this case against Mr. Trump. But if the evidence of a crime was there, then I think the rule of law has to prevail. And you shouldn't be afraid to prosecute⁷ somebody just because of their political position.

PFEIFFER: Although this case obviously has legal implications, it also has enormous political implications, you know, among them, it could help Trump politically, which may not be what prosecutors wanted. It could fire up his supporters. How much, if at all, do prosecutors take factors like that into account when deciding whether to bring charges?

GALLUZZO: Well, they probably do, although they probably wouldn't admit it. I have to imagine that these sort of political considerations are at the forefront of their minds when they bring a case like this. But at the same time, you know, they're duty bound to prosecute crimes when they see them or when the evidence is there. And so, hopefully, that's the reason why they're doing it.

PFEIFFER: Well, you say duty bound. But the Manhattan district attorney, Alvin Bragg, who brought the indictment, has previously⁸ declined to bring charges against the former president. I mean, maybe he just didn't feel they were strong enough. But from what you can tell, why not bring charges forward in other cases but bring them forward with this one?

GALLUZZO: Well, presumably it comes down to the details of the evidence, that in this case, he feels like the evidence supports the prosecution⁹. In the other case, it didn't. Hopefully, that's the reason why and it's not something bigger than that. It's not just, you know, what's on the wind politically. But hopefully, it has to do with the details of the evidence.

PFEIFFER: Trump has called the indictment politically motivated. He says, as he said many times before, that this is a witch hunt. He says it could backfire politically. I'm wondering, though, if you also could potentially see the indictment backfiring legally. And I'm thinking that I read this morning, among other things, that this is New York state law, but it involves federal campaign finance law. So is there a chance that legally, it ends up weak, and it could fall apart for legal reasons?

GALLUZZO: Yeah, the big question I think a lot of people, a lot of lawyers, have looking at this indictment is whether or not it's really legally possible under New York state law and under the law we think he's being charged with - this falsification of business records, felony - to prosecute somebody for an intent to commit a federal crime in state court. And the idea being that he falsified business records to violate federal campaign finance laws. There's obviously been no precedent¹⁰ for that. There's not a whole lot of precedent for charging somebody with falsifying business records to violate a federal law. But I'm going to give the prosecutors the benefit of the doubt and assume that they've done their homework on this subject. They feel like they're on strong footing as far as that being legally possible. But there's no question that it's going to be heavily debated between the prosecutor and the defense¹¹ attorney throughout the course of this case.

PFEIFFER: Right. They would certainly have scrutinized¹² the legal aspects of it very closely...

GALLUZZO: We hope so.

PFEIFFER: ...Before making that move.

GALLUZZO: Sure.

PFEIFFER: To you, do you believe that the case on its merits - and acknowledging here that we don't quite know all the details. Do you think it's likely to secure a conviction? Do you feel that you know enough about it to gauge¹³ that?

GALLUZZO: Well, you're - it's a little bit like asking me if I like a movie based on having watched the trailer because I really don't know what all the evidence is. And I'm not sure what was said behind the closed doors of the grand jury and what these witnesses know. So it's tough for me to handicap it. I'll say one thing. A lot of people are, you know, looking at this purely¹⁴ from the perspective of, what is the evidence? And what are the potential problems with the witnesses? And that's fine. But I think if you're really a knowledgeable¹⁵ trial lawyer, especially in Manhattan and you understand the landscape, one thing you can't ignore is just the impact of the jury pool on this decision because a case can be strong in Manhattan and weak in Staten Island. And, you know, certainly, it can be strong in New York and weak in Georgia based upon the people who are deciding whether or not someone is guilty or innocent. I mean, reasonable people can disagree about evidence.

But here in Manhattan, I mean, what kind of percentage of the vote did Donald Trump carry in the last presidential election? I mean, was it even double digits¹⁶? He is extremely unpopular here. He is possibly the most despised person on the island. And there are going to be potential jurors in this trial who are going to consider it their moral imperative¹⁷ to convict him if they have the opportunity. And, you know, so to get 12 people to acquit¹⁸ him at trial in Manhattan, I think, is actually kind of a tall order for the defense. So I think the possibility of a conviction - I mean, listen; I don't know what the evidence is. But if I had to pick which side to be on, and I had to win to save my life, I would probably choose to be on the prosecution side simply because the jury pool in Manhattan is so, you know, incredibly against Donald Trump.

PFEIFFER: Well, is that a case, then, to have the case moved out of Manhattan?

GALLUZZO: Well, I think you're going to see that motion for sure. I mean, I can't imagine the defense attorneys aren't going to argue that it's impossible for him to get a fair trial in Manhattan given, you know, just how much the local population despises him, how much they already know about the case, how much they've already read. You know, again, we are in some uncharted waters here. Does a former president have the right to transfer a venue¹⁹ based upon his electoral results in the place where he's being prosecuted²⁰? I don't know the answer to that question. It is, to me, a legitimate²¹ argument for his defense attorneys to make. Can he actually get a fair trial in Manhattan? Or is every juror going to have already convicted him in their mind when they show up for jury duty? So I don't know. And I don't know what the decision on that motion would be, but I imagine it's going to get made.

PFEIFFER: I have a nuts-and-bolts question because, obviously, we have a presidential campaign coming up. In terms of how long these can take to play out, when could we expect to see a trial start if it goes to trial?

GALLUZZO: You know, I feel like when I get asked questions about this case, I have to give, like, a two-part answer. Like, the one is what would normally happen and then what I expect to happen here (laughter) because it seems like this is not a normal case. I mean, you might say a year for somebody charged in a case like this between arraignment²² and trial. That would, perhaps, not be an unreasonable²³ estimate, maybe. But, you know, Donald Trump's strategy, I expect, is going to be to try and delay this as much as possible with every motion he can make, every pre-trial motion - contesting venue, contesting the sufficiency of the evidence, contesting all sorts of things. And, you know, because for him, if he can push this thing back until after the election, then, you know, he can effectively win the trial that way. And so I assume that's what he's going to attempt to do. So is it possible to delay a case two, three years if you're, you know, vigorously making all sorts of motions and appealing those decisions? Yeah, it could happen.

PFEIFFER: And it's also likely it could settle?

GALLUZZO: Oh, I don't think so. (Laughter) I seriously doubt it.

PFEIFFER: Because prosecutors wouldn't allow that? Or because Trump wouldn't be willing to do it?

GALLUZZO: I just can't imagine Trump taking a plea to anything. I mean, he's charged - he's going to be charged with a bunch of felonies and probably a lot of misdemeanors. And, you know, they're not going to offer him some sort of noncriminal violation²⁴ to resolve the case. I mean, if you come at someone like this, you're expecting to, you know, get a secure criminal conviction. And so they're not going to make him an offer that he would accept. And I think, more than anything, he probably wants that public stage to play the victim, to have an audience. I just can't imagine that a deal could be reached between the parties.

PFEIFFER: That's Matthew Galluzzo. He is a former prosecutor in the Manhattan district attorney's office. Thanks for talking this morning.

GALLUZZO: Thank you.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

1 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

2 indictment   

n.起诉；诉状

参考例句：

• He handed up the indictment to the supreme court.他把起诉书送交最高法院。
• They issued an indictment against them.他们起诉了他们。

3 remains   

n.剩余物，残留物；遗体，遗迹

参考例句：

• He ate the remains of food hungrily.他狼吞虎咽地吃剩余的食物。
• The remains of the meal were fed to the dog.残羹剩饭喂狗了。

4 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

5 prosecutor   

n.起诉人；检察官，公诉人

参考例句：

• The defender argued down the prosecutor at the court.辩护人在法庭上驳倒了起诉人。
• The prosecutor would tear your testimony to pieces.检查官会把你的证言驳得体无完肤。

6 prosecutors   

检举人( prosecutor的名词复数 )； 告发人； 起诉人； 公诉人

参考例句：

• In some places,public prosecutors are elected rather than appointed. 在有些地方，检察官是经选举而非任命产生的。 来自口语例句
• You've been summoned to the Prosecutors' Office, 2 days later. 你在两天以后被宣到了检察官的办公室。

7 prosecute   

vt.告发；进行；vi.告发，起诉，作检察官

参考例句：

• I am trying my best to prosecute my duties.我正在尽力履行我的职责。
• Is there enough evidence to prosecute?有没有起诉的足够证据？

8 previously   

adv.以前，先前（地）

参考例句：

• The bicycle tyre blew out at a previously damaged point.自行车胎在以前损坏过的地方又爆开了。
• Let me digress for a moment and explain what had happened previously.让我岔开一会儿，解释原先发生了什么。

9 prosecution   

n.起诉，告发，检举，执行，经营

参考例句：

• The Smiths brought a prosecution against the organizers.史密斯家对组织者们提出起诉。
• He attempts to rebut the assertion made by the prosecution witness.他试图反驳原告方证人所作的断言。

10 precedent   

n.先例，前例；惯例；adj.在前的，在先的

参考例句：

• Is there a precedent for what you want me to do?你要我做的事有前例可援吗？
• This is a wonderful achievement without precedent in Chinese history.这是中国历史上亘古未有的奇绩。

11 defense   

n.防御，保卫；[pl.]防务工事；辩护，答辩

参考例句：

• The accused has the right to defense.被告人有权获得辩护。
• The war has impacted the area with military and defense workers.战争使那个地区挤满了军队和防御工程人员。

12 scrutinized   

v.仔细检查，详审( scrutinize的过去式和过去分词 )

参考例句：

• The jeweler scrutinized the diamond for flaws. 宝石商人仔细察看钻石有无瑕庇 来自《现代英汉综合大词典》
• Together we scrutinized the twelve lemon cakes from the delicatessen shop. 我们一起把甜食店里买来的十二块柠檬蛋糕细细打量了一番。 来自英汉文学 - 盖茨比

13 gauge   

v.精确计量；估计；n.标准度量；计量器

参考例句：

• Can you gauge what her reaction is likely to be?你能揣测她的反应可能是什么吗？
• It's difficult to gauge one's character.要判断一个人的品格是很困难的。

14 purely   

adv.纯粹地，完全地

参考例句：

• I helped him purely and simply out of friendship.我帮他纯粹是出于友情。
• This disproves the theory that children are purely imitative.这证明认为儿童只会单纯地模仿的理论是站不住脚的。

15 knowledgeable   

adj.知识渊博的；有见识的

参考例句：

• He's quite knowledgeable about the theatre.他对戏剧很有心得。
• He made some knowledgeable remarks at the meeting.他在会上的发言颇有见地。

16 digits   

n.数字( digit的名词复数 )；手指，足趾

参考例句：

• The number 1000 contains four digits. 1000是四位数。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• The number 410 contains three digits. 数字 410 中包括三个数目字。 来自《现代英汉综合大词典》

17 imperative   

n.命令，需要；规则；祈使语气；adj.强制的；紧急的

参考例句：

• He always speaks in an imperative tone of voice.他老是用命令的口吻讲话。
• The events of the past few days make it imperative for her to act.过去这几天发生的事迫使她不得不立即行动。

18 acquit   

vt.宣判无罪；(oneself)使(自己)表现出

参考例句：

• That fact decided the judge to acquit him.那个事实使法官判他无罪。
• They always acquit themselves of their duty very well.他们总是很好地履行自己的职责。

19 venue   

n.犯罪地点，审判地，管辖地，发生地点，集合地点

参考例句：

• The hall provided a venue for weddings and other functions.大厅给婚礼和其他社会活动提供了场所。
• The chosen venue caused great controversy among the people.人们就审判地点的问题产生了极大的争议。

20 prosecuted   

a.被起诉的

参考例句：

• The editors are being prosecuted for obscenity. 编辑因刊载污秽文字而被起诉。
• The company was prosecuted for breaching the Health and Safety Act. 这家公司被控违反《卫生安全条例》。

21 legitimate   

adj.合法的，合理的，合乎逻辑的；v.使合法

参考例句：

• Sickness is a legitimate reason for asking for leave.生病是请假的一个正当的理由。
• That's a perfectly legitimate fear.怀有这种恐惧完全在情理之中。

22 arraignment   

n.提问，传讯，责难

参考例句：

• She was remanded to juvenile detention at her arraignment yesterday. 她昨天被送回了对少年拘留在她的传讯。 来自互联网
• Wyatt asks the desk clerk which courthouse he is being transferred to for arraignment. 他向接待警员询问了马宏将在哪个法庭接受传讯。 来自互联网

23 unreasonable   

adj.不讲道理的，不合情理的，过度的

参考例句：

• I know that they made the most unreasonable demands on you.我知道他们对你提出了最不合理的要求。
• They spend an unreasonable amount of money on clothes.他们花在衣服上的钱太多了。

24 violation   

n.违反(行为)，违背(行为)，侵犯

参考例句：

• He roared that was a violation of the rules.他大声说，那是违反规则的。
• He was fined 200 dollars for violation of traffic regulation.他因违反交通规则被罚款200美元。