美国国家公共电台 NPR John Kelly On Trump, The Russia Investigation And Separating Immigrant Families

 

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST:

General John Kelly is at the center of what is arguably the most turbulent presidential administration in modern times. A decorated four-star Marine¹ Corps² general with four decades in the service, he serves as chief of staff in the Trump³ White House. NPR's John Burnett sat down with John Kelly in his office at the White House yesterday for an exclusive interview. John joins me in the studio this morning.

Hey, John.

JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE⁴: Hey, Rachel.

MARTIN: So General Kelly doesn't give a lot of on-the-record interviews. How did this come to be?

BURNETT: Well, I knew General Kelly from 2003. He was a brigadier general in the 1st Marine Division during the invasion of Iraq when I was an embedded⁵ reporter. And he was our daily battle briefer. So here we are 15 years later. He's 68 now, retired⁶ from the Marine Corps. He joined the administration to lead the Department of Homeland Security.

MARTIN: Right.

BURNETT: And Trump was so impressed with the immigration crackdown and the fall-off in border crossings that he tapped Kelly, then only six months into the job, to come to the White House. We were sitting at his conference table in his office in the West Wing of the White House. There was a world map on his wall and a model of the Iwo Jima memorial in the room. He was in a blue suit, red-striped tie with a plastic watch.

MARTIN: So John Kelly largely believed to have been brought into the White House because it was swirling⁷ in chaos⁸ especially in those early months. There have been reports for many months since that the president hasn't been so keen on the ways that Kelly has tried to bring more order to the West Wing, controlling who gets access to the president, for example, or vetting⁹ information that makes it to the Oval Office. What did Kelly have to say about his relationship with the president?

BURNETT: Well, I asked him about that.

Do you have any regrets about taking this job nine months ago?

JOHN KELLY: I, first of all, didn't get a vote. I took a $30,000-a-year cut to take this job from what I was doing at DHS. And I say that only because I'm one of the - probably the few people around here that isn't really rich, at my age, anyway. You know, the sense of duty. It was clear from my perch¹⁰ at DHS that the White House was less organized than our president deserved. So when he said I really need you to come down, what do you say? I came down.

BURNETT: Have you seriously considered leaving?

KELLY: No. There's times of great frustration¹¹, mostly because of the stories I read about myself or others that I think the world of and wonder if it's worth it to be subjected to that. But then I grow up and suck it up.

BURNETT: Kelly actually told me this job is the hardest thing he's ever done in his life. But he said he thinks the president is, quote, "a super smart guy, quick study on trade, taxes and business." I asked him if there was anything he would have done differently in that job.

KELLY: In retrospect¹², I wish I had been here from day one.

BURNETT: How so?

KELLY: Well, because in terms of staffing or serving the president, that first six months was pretty chaotic¹³. There were people hired that maybe shouldn't have been hired. It's not that things were a disaster that first six months, but I believe they could have been better.

BURNETT: So Kelly says he spends an enormous amount of time with Donald Trump. He says five to eight hours a day, more time with the president than anyone outside of Trump's own family. I asked Kelly what he does the rest of his day. He says he starts at 5:30 in the morning reading the news on the ride from his home in Manassas, Va., to the White House. He ends it 15 hours later, usually with a glass of what he calls cheap red wine.

MARTIN: So, I mean, the Trump White House obviously is wrestling with a number of high-profile controversies¹⁴, in particular the Russia investigation¹⁵. What did he have to say there?

BURNETT: Right. Kelly made clear he can't comment directly on the investigation because that's being handled by outside legal counsel. But he definitely - the White House definitely feels the weight of the Russia probe.

The president keeps calling the Russian investigation a witch hunt. Do you think it's a witch hunt against the president?

KELLY: From what I read in the newspaper, something that has gone on this long without any real meat on the bone, it suggests to me that there is nothing there relative to our president.

BURNETT: Is there a cloud because of it hanging over this White House?

KELLY: Well, yeah. You know, it's - there may not be a cloud, but certainly the president is somewhat embarrassed, frankly¹⁶. When world leaders come in - you know, Bibi Netanyahu was here, who's under investigation himself - and it's like you walk in and, you know, the first couple of minutes of every conversation might revolve¹⁷ around that kind of thing.

MARTIN: Wow. That's a pretty revealing comment. I mean, we don't think of President Trump as being someone who gets embarrassed about a whole lot. But it's clearly affecting his interactions with world leaders, according to Kelly. It was a pretty wide-ranging interview, a wide-ranging conversation. You also asked John Kelly about the upcoming summit between President Trump and North Korea's leader, Kim Jong Un. What did he have to say there?

BURNETT: Yeah, exactly. And then it was announced right before our interview about the meeting that will take place in Singapore four weeks from now. Here's our exchange.

How can you be sure that he's not going to trick you, that you've been down this road so many times before and there have been disappointments with that country?

KELLY: Not sure. But this president's got his eyes wide open. Believe me, the president really wants this to work. We talk fairly frequently about nuclear weapons, and he's just astounded¹⁸ that the United States, that the human race could have gotten itself into this dilemma¹⁹ with all of these nuclear weapons. And, you know, as he says, to help North Korea give up its nuclear program and its missile program would be a wonderful thing.

MARTIN: I mean, as you noted²⁰, before John Kelly came to the White House, he was chief at Homeland Security for six months. And in that post, he really presided over the most aggressive ramp-up of immigration enforcement in modern American history. You talked with him about the president's push on illegal immigration. What struck you?

BURNETT: Well, you can really hear that in his comments. They differ from his boss's polarizing rhetoric²¹, and yet they still agree on tough border controls.

KELLY: Let me step back and tell you that the vast majority of the people that move illegally into United States are not bad people. They're not criminals. They're not MS-13. But they're also not people that would easily assimilate into the United States. They're overwhelmingly rural people. In the countries they come from, fourth, fifth, sixth-grade educations are kind of the norm. They're coming here for a reason, and I sympathize with the reason. But the laws are the laws.

BURNETT: Kelly is known for his hardline thinking on deporting²² unauthorized immigrants and for suggesting early on that family separation could be a powerful deterrent²³ at the border against illegal crossings and also for canceling TPS, Temporary Protected Status. This is the program that allows immigrants to stay in the U.S. from certain countries that have been struck by a natural disaster or war. And the administration recently canceled TPS for some 400,000 immigrants from Central America and the Caribbean. But when I asked him about that, what he said surprised me.

KELLY: I think we should fold all of the TPS people that have been here for a considerable period of time and find a way for them to be - a path to citizenship²⁴.

BURNETT: A path to citizenship, rather than sent home?

KELLY: Well, they were in a legal status under TPS. You take the Central Americans, they've all been here 20-plus years. I mean, if you really start looking at, you know, you've been here 20 years, what have you done with your life? Well, I've married an American guy, and I have three children. And I've worked. And I've gotten a degree. Or I'm a brick mason or something like that. That's what I think we should do.

MARTIN: A fascinating interview. NPR's John Burnett. He sat down for a one-on-one exclusive interview with the chief of staff of the White House, John Kelly. John, thank you so much for bringing this to us.

BURNETT: My pleasure, Rachel.

1 marine   

adj.海的；海生的；航海的；海事的；n.水兵

参考例句：

• Marine creatures are those which live in the sea. 海洋生物是生存在海里的生物。
• When the war broke out,he volunteered for the Marine Corps.战争爆发时，他自愿参加了海军陆战队。

2 corps   

n.(通信等兵种的)部队；(同类作的)一组

参考例句：

• The medical corps were cited for bravery in combat.医疗队由于在战场上的英勇表现而受嘉奖。
• When the war broke out,he volunteered for the Marine Corps.战争爆发时，他自愿参加了海军陆战队。

3 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

4 byline   

n.署名；v.署名

参考例句：

• His byline was absent as well.他的署名也不见了。
• We wish to thank the author of this article which carries no byline.我们要感谢这篇文章的那位没有署名的作者。

5 embedded   

a.扎牢的

参考例句：

• an operation to remove glass that was embedded in his leg 取出扎入他腿部玻璃的手术
• He has embedded his name in the minds of millions of people. 他的名字铭刻在数百万人民心中。

6 retired   

adj.隐退的，退休的，退役的

参考例句：

• The old man retired to the country for rest.这位老人下乡休息去了。
• Many retired people take up gardening as a hobby.许多退休的人都以从事园艺为嗜好。

7 swirling   

v.旋转，打旋( swirl的现在分词 )

参考例句：

• Snowflakes were swirling in the air. 天空飘洒着雪花。 来自《现代汉英综合大词典》
• She smiled, swirling the wine in her glass. 她微笑着，旋动着杯子里的葡萄酒。 来自辞典例句

8 chaos   

n.混乱，无秩序

参考例句：

• After the failure of electricity supply the city was in chaos.停电后，城市一片混乱。
• The typhoon left chaos behind it.台风后一片混乱。

9 vetting   

n.数据检查[核对，核实]v.审查（某人过去的记录、资格等）( vet的现在分词 )；调查；检查；诊疗

参考例句：

• Scripts had to be submitted to Ministry of Information officials for vetting. 必须把脚本提交给信息部官员审查。 来自互联网
• Their purpose in clicking deeper into a site is one of vetting. 他们深入点击网站的目的是一种诊疗。 来自互联网

10 perch   

n.栖木，高位，杆；v.栖息，就位，位于

参考例句：

• The bird took its perch.鸟停歇在栖木上。
• Little birds perch themselves on the branches.小鸟儿栖歇在树枝上。

11 frustration   

n.挫折，失败，失效，落空

参考例句：

• He had to fight back tears of frustration.他不得不强忍住失意的泪水。
• He beat his hands on the steering wheel in frustration.他沮丧地用手打了几下方向盘。

12 retrospect   

n.回顾，追溯；v.回顾，回想，追溯

参考例句：

• One's school life seems happier in retrospect than in reality.学校生活回忆起来显得比实际上要快乐。
• In retrospect,it's easy to see why we were wrong.回顾过去就很容易明白我们的错处了。

13 chaotic   

adj.混沌的，一片混乱的，一团糟的

参考例句：

• Things have been getting chaotic in the office recently.最近办公室的情况越来越乱了。
• The traffic in the city was chaotic.这城市的交通糟透了。

14 controversies   

争论

参考例句：

• We offer no comment on these controversies here. 对于这些争议，我们在这里不作任何评论。 来自英汉非文学 - 历史
• The controversies surrounding population growth are unlikely to subside soon. 围绕着人口增长问题的争论看来不会很快平息。 来自辞典例句

15 investigation   

n.调查，调查研究

参考例句：

• In an investigation,a new fact became known, which told against him.在调查中新发现了一件对他不利的事实。
• He drew the conclusion by building on his own investigation.他根据自己的调查研究作出结论。

16 frankly   

adv.坦白地，直率地；坦率地说

参考例句：

• To speak frankly, I don't like the idea at all.老实说，我一点也不赞成这个主意。
• Frankly speaking, I'm not opposed to reform.坦率地说，我不反对改革。

17 revolve   

vi.(使)旋转；循环出现

参考例句：

• The planets revolve around the sun.行星绕着太阳运转。
• The wheels began to revolve slowly.车轮开始慢慢转动。

18 astounded   

v.使震惊(astound的过去式和过去分词)；愕然；愕；惊讶

参考例句：

• His arrogance astounded her. 他的傲慢使她震惊。
• How can you say that? I'm absolutely astounded. 你怎么能说出那种话？我感到大为震惊。

19 dilemma   

n.困境，进退两难的局面

参考例句：

• I am on the horns of a dilemma about the matter.这件事使我进退两难。
• He was thrown into a dilemma.他陷入困境。

20 noted   

adj.著名的，知名的

参考例句：

• The local hotel is noted for its good table.当地的那家酒店以餐食精美而著称。
• Jim is noted for arriving late for work.吉姆上班迟到出了名。

21 rhetoric   

n.修辞学，浮夸之言语

参考例句：

• Do you know something about rhetoric?你懂点修辞学吗？
• Behind all the rhetoric,his relations with the army are dangerously poised.在冠冕堂皇的言辞背后，他和军队的关系岌岌可危。

22 deporting   

v.将…驱逐出境( deport的现在分词 )；举止

参考例句：

23 deterrent   

n.阻碍物，制止物；adj.威慑的，遏制的

参考例句：

• Large fines act as a deterrent to motorists.高额罚款是对开车的人的制约。
• I put a net over my strawberries as a deterrent to the birds.我在草莓上罩了网，免得鸟歇上去。

24 citizenship   

n.市民权，公民权，国民的义务(身份)

参考例句：

• He was born in Sweden,but he doesn't have Swedish citizenship.他在瑞典出生，但没有瑞典公民身分。
• Ten years later,she chose to take Australian citizenship.十年后，她选择了澳大利亚国籍。