美国国家公共电台 NPR Gillibrand, Opening Up About Her Religion, Says GOP Is Not A 'Faith-Driven Party'（在线收听）

Gillibrand, Opening Up About Her Religion, Says GOP Is Not A 'Faith-Driven Party'

(SOUNDBITE OF THE BIGTOP ORCHESTRA'S "TEETER BOARD: FOLIES BERGERE (MARCH AND TWO-STEP)")

TAMARA KEITH, HOST:

Hey there, it's the NPR POLITICS PODCAST. I'm Tamara Keith. Throughout the spring and summer, we'll be taking you on the road to meet the 2020 presidential candidates. We're doing these special episodes in collaboration with New Hampshire Public Radio and Iowa Public Radio. So I've been spending a lot of time with IPR's lead political reporter, Clay Masters.

CLAY MASTERS, BYLINE: Hey, Tam, welcome back to Iowa.

KEITH: Hello, Clay, it's good to be back. It's only been a week. Good to see you again.

MASTERS: That's right. But you're back again because it's Iowa, and they're always here.

KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND: They being the 24 or so Democrats running for president. This week, we were in Waterloo, Iowa, to see New York Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, who is campaigning with her husband and 11-year-old son. Gillibrand is a lawyer by training who went on to represent upstate New York in the House of Representatives. She replaced Hillary Clinton in the Senate and made a name for herself by taking on sexual assault in the military, passing the 9/11 first responders health care legislation and for encouraging other women to get off the political sidelines. The senator gave her stump speech at the front of a small bar and grill.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

GILLIBRAND: President Trump is someone who demonizes the weak. He's someone who demeans the vulnerable. He's actually somebody who punches down. And I think this country deserves a president who's brave.

KEITH: There were about three dozen people there to see Gillibrand. And she, like most candidates, stuck around to sign posters and take selfies.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

GILLIBRAND: I'll stay as long as you guys want to stay. I'll take as many selfies as you want. I just ask you to please post them.

(LAUGHTER)

GILLIBRAND: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Right.

MASTERS: One of the things that stuck out to both you and me in what she said was that I'm going to stay. We're going to take selfies. We're going to take pictures. And will you please post them to social media? So she's, you know, trying to get her face out there even in people's social media feeds.

KEITH: And there's a reason for that. She's polling at about 1%. And in order to be guaranteed to make the debate stage, all of the candidates need to raise money from at least 65,000 individual donors. She hasn't met that threshold yet.

MASTERS: Right. She hasn't. And when there is a sea of Democratic candidates running right now, you're trying to find any way you can to stick out in these voters' minds and be remembered.

KEITH: The next morning, we sat down with Senator Gillibrand in one of those giant hotel ballrooms.

MASTERS: So first of all, there was this viral video going around - one of your first trips to Iowa - of this woman that was, like, having to move past you to get more ranch dressing.

GILLIBRAND: Yes.

MASTERS: How do you really feel about ranch dressing?

GILLIBRAND: It's not my favorite.

KEITH: (Laughter) Was it your favorite before then?

GILLIBRAND: No, not my favorite. But the lady was lovely, and I just thought she was trying to ask a question. I said, oh, do you have a question? She's, like, no, I'm just trying to get some ranch. I said, oh, OK.

(LAUGHTER)

KEITH: So serious question - what is the exact moment that you decided that you needed to run for president in 2020?

GILLIBRAND: So it was really over the holidays where I wanted to sit down with my family and have a really heartfelt conversation about what it would mean for them because I've been concerned about the direction the country's been in the - from the second President Trump was elected. I assumed, obviously, that Hillary Clinton would be our president. I was looking forward to her presidency. I was looking forward to helping her pass strong legislation and help move this country forward.

And so I just wanted to sit down with my family and ask them how they felt about me running and explaining to a 10-year-old and a 15-year-old what sacrifices they would actually be making. And their response was the moment that Jonathan and I decided that's something we could actually do. And I was most worried about Henry because he's - was only 10 - he's 11 now - because I usually spent all weekend with him. I would work on Sunday afternoons but not Saturdays, and I'd get to go to all his soccer games and all his baseball games. I was even his assistant part-time baseball coach.

So there was a lot of things that would change for me 'cause I knew if I decided to do this, I'd be in other states every weekend. And - but Henry was excited. And he said, oh, Mom, I'm coming with you. And so he's on the trail with us now. He's in Iowa and having a blast.

KEITH: Have you missed some games?

GILLIBRAND: Henry's games?

KEITH: Yeah.

GILLIBRAND: Yes, I've missed most of Henry's games because they're on Saturdays. When they are on a Sunday that I happen to be home, I've caught two so far this season, so it's not a lot. It's different. It's very different. And I also have always been the primary caregiver in our family, and so to have Jonathan pick up the slack there was a big change for him. And he's - they've both thrived. I mean, it's really amazing.

When I get home on a Monday - the first time I was away for a week, and I get home on a Monday. And it's - we're getting - it's - I voted, and we're getting ready for bed. And I said, Henry, it's 8:30. It's bedtime. You got to get upstairs. You got to brush your teeth. He's, like, oh, no, Mom, those aren't the rules anymore - Daddy's rules. And I don't have to be in bed till 9:30.

KEITH: (Laughter).

GILLIBRAND: Like, OK, new rules. But if that's what makes them work, that's okay with me.

KEITH: Why are you the person to be president? Why are you the right person for this really huge job at this particular time?

GILLIBRAND: I believe I'm the right person to take on President Trump because I think the country needs a president who's brave. President Trump has been dividing the country, dividing us at every racial, religious, socioeconomic line you can find. And I think you need somebody who's going to do the right thing for the right reasons, who will go through fire to do what's right. And that is who I've always been. My story is so different than any other Democrat running. I've stood up to the Pentagon twice - first, over don't ask, don't tell, then over sexual violence in the military. I've stood up to the banks as a member of Congress from New York when we had the - both parties throwing money at the banks to bail them out after the financial collapse. I read the bill, and I saw that it was designed to leave the taxpayers holding the bag, so I voted against that legislation twice. I stood up to Congress and the culture of corruption in Washington, first as a new member of Congress, posting my earmarks, my schedule, my financial disclosures, now all my taxes online, but also passing legislation to ban insider trading by members of Congress. So I do the hard things that sometimes others won't, and I bring people together.

My story - getting elected in a 2-1 Republican district twice, the second time by a 24-point margin, and then bringing a state like New York together, winning in the red, blue and purple areas higher than anyone else has ever run at 72%. That's higher than President Obama, higher than Hillary Clinton, higher than any person who's run for Senate or governor in its history. And so I think you need a president who's brave, who will do the hard things and who can bring the country together. And I think I'm unique in that.

MASTERS: At the same time, you talk about bringing the country together. Part of your stump speech, you talk about Donald Trump, the fear that he stokes...

GILLIBRAND: Yeah.

MASTERS: ...Very critical of him. How do you go after Trump voters when you're saying things like that and trying to bring people together?

GILLIBRAND: So I think many people voted for President Trump because they thought he was going to help their families. He ran as a disruptor, saying the system's rigged - Liz Warren's message - no bad trade deals - Bernie Sanders' message - and build a wall - his own hateful, racist, dog-whistle message. So he lied to people. He had no intention of ever unrigging the system. He has created trade wars, not stopped bad trade deals.

And so the impact of his presidency on people who voted for him, in many instances, has been devastating. You talk to farmers here in Iowa. Because of the trade war with China, they can't sell their pork, their corn, their ethanol or their soybeans. You talk to John Deere manufacturer - their No. 1 input is steel products. Well, with a trade war with China, the price of steel skyrocketed. Their input's too expensive. They can't make what they want to make without losing, and they can't make money. They can't sell it for a price that covers their cost.

And so the truth is people who expected someone to take on the system have gotten someone who's lined his own pockets, lined his cabinet with the elite of the elite. He promised to drain the swamp, but he is a big toad sitting in the middle of the swamp right now. And so the truth is he never intended on making their lives better. I will take on the special interests and the greed and corruption at the heart of Washington.

MASTERS: Locally here in Iowa, you were endorsed by Kirsten Anderson, who is a former Iowa Senate Republican staffer who reached a $1.75 million settlement because of sexual harassment in the capital. She's been locally very outspoken in the #MeToo movement. At the same time, you've faced some backlash for calling on Al Franken - being the first senator to call on Al Franken to step down for inappropriate behavior towards women. Do you feel that the #MeToo movement is kind of cutting both ways for your campaign?

GILLIBRAND: So the #MeToo movement started a long time ago. And the purpose was to give space to men and women who had been sexually assaulted, sexually abused, raped so they could tell their story and have a chance at justice. But this moment we're in is far more about the broader issue, about do we value women. And women have been fighting back. This time we're in is about do we value women. And so whether it's helped me or hurt me is irrelevant to me because it's what I believe. It's what I care about.

I value women. I've spent my career in politics trying to elevate women's voices. I created a political action committee just to raise money and raise awareness and create a call to action for women to run for Congress, to get to 51% of women in Congress. So to me, it doesn't matter which way it cuts. I just know it's the right thing to do.

And I will continue to standing by women when they are marginalized, when they are mistreated, when they are abused and when they are assaulted. And I will try to create justice for them, whether I'm fighting against the Department of Defense, trying to change sexual harassment in the military, whether I'm fighting to change the rules on college campuses so justice is possible, or when I'm calling out a colleague for something that's inappropriate. It's who I am, and it's what I believe in.

KEITH: Do you think that calling out your colleague has hurt you in terms of fundraising and other things like that? And do you think that there's any hypocrisy in people who say they don't want to give you money because of Al Franken, when people were perfectly happy when it was Republicans getting in trouble?

GILLIBRAND: I do. And with Senator Franken, there were eight allegations that were corroborated in real time, credible allegations that were documented by the press and those who investigated them. Two of them were since he was a senator, and the last one that came to light was a congressional staffer. And to me, my job was to decide whether or not to defend it, and my silence was a defense. And so I had to, at some point, say enough was enough and that it was not OK. I also a mother of boys, and so these issues about whether we value women have been important to me in talking to my boys. And so I had to be clear, especially with my 15-year-old, that, you know, you can't grope a woman anywhere on her body without her consent. You can't forcibly kiss a woman ever without her consent. And that it's not OK for our colleague, it's not OK for him, Theo, that he needed to know that his mother had clarity on this. So if a few donors in our party are angry that I stood with eight women who came forward, that's on them.

MASTERS: Iowa passed a abortion ban that was struck down in the courts. Curious - are there any restrictions on abortion that you would deem acceptable?

GILLIBRAND: So I think the precedent of Roe v. Wade is the appropriate precedent. And as president of the United States, I will not nominate judges or justices that don't see Roe v. Wade as settled law and as precedent. And I think it's important that we codify Roe v. Wade. I think it's important that we repeal the Hyde Amendment, which is the law that says if you are a low-income woman, you don't get access to reproductive care through Medicaid, which I think is wrong. And I would also, as president, make sure that you could have access to reproductive services including abortions in all 50 states.

KEITH: You're Catholic. You were raised Catholic. How - and the Catholic Church has very strong views on abortion that don't jibe with what you just said. How did you over time sort of reconcile your religion and your upbringing with your views on abortion? How did you get there?

GILLIBRAND: So I am a Christian. I have very strong faith that guides me. But I think the Catholic Church can be wrong on many things, and I don't agree with their views on reproductive rights. I don't agree with their views on LGBTQ equality. I don't agree with their views on whether women should be able to have a role in ministry. I think you should have female priests. I think you should allow priests to marry. And I think they are wrong on those three issues. And I don't think they're supported by the gospel or the Bible in any way. I just - I don't see it. And I go to two Bible studies week. I take my faith really seriously. So I disagree.

KEITH: You've been campaigning on a Family Bill of Rights. I'm hoping you can explain what it is and how it would work. But also, frequently, I hear from people who say, I don't have kids, I don't plan to have kids. Why should I be paying for this? Why - what's the - why the - why should the government be involved in, you know, people's decision to have families?

GILLIBRAND: So the government's not involved in the decision to have families, so there's a misunderstanding in their views.

KEITH: Well, but the government would be potentially involved in helping people who made the choice to have a family.

GILLIBRAND: So the government's not going to do anything to help people who want to have families. What you're doing is you're changing policy to make it possible. And I'll describe the policies, and then I'll describe where it would also help someone who doesn't choose to have children 'cause there's parts of this that are really strong. So should I go through the Family Bill of Rights?

KEITH: Yep. Yeah, let's do it.

GILLIBRAND: And then we'll go to the naysayer afterwards.

KEITH: Yes. Yes, let's do that.

MASTERS: (Laughter).

GILLIBRAND: OK. So let's start with the idea, and then we'll protect the naysayer. OK. So the idea is wherever I've traveled in this country, people are struggling with just being able to provide for their families. It's a time in their life where things are really difficult for a couple of structural reasons. So the first is make it possible for people who have children to be able to have a healthy pregnancy and a healthy delivery - seems pretty basic. So that means two things - maternal care. We are the highest ranked of all industrialized countries for maternal mortality. It's a disgrace. And if you are a black woman in this country, you are four times more likely to die in childbirth or within a year of giving birth. In New York City, that statistic is 12 times more likely. So it's an outrage.

So I have a piece of legislation to provide for training for our health care industry and these maternal emergency bundles that are placed in delivery rooms. It's all the equipment that you would need if a woman delivering a child goes into cardiac arrest or starts bleeding out or has some emergency that often leads to death. So we know from states that have done this, different communities that have done this, that it reduces the number of maternal mortality or the maternal deaths as well as children who die in childbirth, so one change.

The second is rural health care. We know in Iowa - I just visited a community yesterday that there is no OB-GYN in their community, period. And so they have to go 40 miles to deliver a baby, 40 miles for a checkup if they have an at-risk pregnancy. Imagine being in labor and know you are 45 minutes from the nearest doctor who can deliver that baby. That is frightening. And I met with two women who underwent that and the fear they had and the worry they had and the burden on their families. So we have a bill to actually make it possible to put resources into rural communities so they can attract OB-GYNs and doctors. They can have better facilities and be able to meet those needs. So that's item one.

KEITH: OK.

GILLIBRAND: Item two...

KEITH: We only have a few minutes (laughter).

GILLIBRAND: OK, so I'll try to be quicker and summarize...

KEITH: Sorry.

GILLIBRAND: ...And you ask me if you want more detail.

KEITH: OK, great.

GILLIBRAND: So that's first - maternal mortality. Second is making sure that when we - that anyone who wants to have a baby can have one, so making sure, if you're an LGBTQ couple, that you can adopt; making sure, if you need fertility treatments or IVF, that that's covered by insurers - so just making it accessible. And then if you're a low-income family, making a tax credit not a tax deduction for adoption because then it's just much more able.

Third - once you have that baby, you want them to survive their first few months. And so we know from research in other states and other countries that if you give a family a baby bundle when they have a baby - it's a box that can be used as a crib that has a child carrier that has formula that has diapers that has swaddling cloth - all the things that you need to keep that baby healthy for the first year a lot of new parents don't know. And so this will help them.

Fourth - having a national family paid leave bill. This is what helps everyone else and the naysayers. Here's your naysayers part. So national paid leave - every person in America should have up to three months paid leave for family emergencies - not just new babies but when your parents are sick or dying or when your spouse is ill or you have an ill child. Paid family leave will be a relief of a burden for all workers so that they don't have to choose between a paycheck and meeting the needs of a loved one and don't lose their place. And then last - universal pre-K and affordable daycare - two things that are impediments to having children all across America that would make a huge difference.

KEITH: All right. So what about our naysayer?

GILLIBRAND: I - the paid family leave. Paid family leave is the thing that if you are - have a parent whose sick or dying, if you have a spouse who's ill, if you have a child - let's not use children in case you don't have children - but anyone in your family that needs your care - we're the only industrialized country in the world that doesn't have national paid leave.

KEITH: We have been asking members of our audience to send us questions, and they have sent us a lot of questions. So we want to start with Shuo Pascoe Yang (ph) from Tarrytown, N.Y., who asks, what's a political view you once held but now disagree with? And what made you change your mind?

GILLIBRAND: Well, as a member of Congress from the House of Representatives, I used to have an A-rating by the NRA. Today, I have a very proud F. And I, as a House member, really only focused on the concerns and needs of my district. We didn't have a great deal of gun violence, and so I didn't lead on issues that I should have led on. When I became senator for the state, I recognized that I needed to understand all the urgencies and concerns and challenges of the rest of the state. And one of the biggest urgencies is gun violence. We had severe gun violence and gang violence in different parts of our state from Buffalo to the Bronx to Brooklyn to a lot of places. And so when I went down to Brooklyn and actually met with a family who had lost their daughter to gun violence, I knew that I was not only wrong but that I should have cared. I should have done more to fight for all families and all communities, regardless if it was in my backyard. And I know now that I'm exactly where I want to be. And for the last 10 years, I've been leading on the issue.

KEITH: All right. We are going to take a quick break. And when we get back, Senator Gillibrand reflects on her own Christian faith and why she says Republicans are not driven by faith.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

KEITH: And we're back. And we wanted to get to know Kirsten Gillibrand the person not the politician.

MASTERS: What is something that people don't know about you? When you're giving your stump speech, like, what's something that you feel like you're leaving out that you think is important, that defines you?

GILLIBRAND: Interesting. Well, I don't often talk about my faith, and that's something that's very important to me and something that drives me personally. I think we have a very strong Constitution that insists on separation of church and state, so it's not a issue that I talk about really outside of a worship service or a faith-based community because it's - can be offensive to some people, can be troubling to some people and something that's not shared. And so that's something that I typically don't talk about on the stump.

KEITH: Do you think that there is a movement afoot where progressives are trying to take religion back?

GILLIBRAND: I certainly hope they do because I don't think the Republican Party is a faith-driven party. I really don't. I think when they don't feed the poor and don't vote for food stamps, when they don't care about families struggling and living in poverty, when they continue to invest in for-profit prisons, they aren't doing what the gospel tells them to do - feed the poor, help the sick. They don't support "Medicare for All." They don't support health care as a right and not a privilege and visit the incarcerated and welcome the stranger, by the way. So their anti-immigrant, anti-refugee platform is so antithetical to my faith, my - you know, they're proclaimed faith - that I don't really think that is what drives them.

KEITH: You wrote in your book that when you were 6 or 7, you were talking to your sisters - sisters?

GILLIBRAND: Sister and cousin.

KEITH: Sister and cousin - you were talking to your sister and cousin, and you said when I grow up, I want to be a senator because you thought it sounded important.

GILLIBRAND: Yeah.

KEITH: My question is, why when you were 6 or 7 years old, did you not think I want to be president?

GILLIBRAND: You know, the idea flashed in my head, but at the time, I thought that was even too presumptuous. So I decided I'd go with senator because that was something that - I knew someone who was a senator. I didn't know a woman who was a senator, but I knew somebody who a senator, and so I began to imagine it. I didn't know what a senator was. The person that I was thinking of was a state senator. But I knew that it was somebody whose job was to help people. I knew it was somebody whose job was to speak out and to do things to make a difference, and that really appealed to me. My grandmother was the one who really opened the door to public service to me, and she was always a larger-than-life figure to me. She believed the public service was the way to help her community and to give her voice to what she thought was important and so did I.

MASTERS: What's a point in your personal life that you feel like you failed, and what did you learn from it?

GILLIBRAND: When I failed - well, I can tell you a point in my life when I felt like I was not doing what I was meant to do, so that might be a failure. I remember I was very excited when I was a young person to get a job at a big law firm. I was - I really thought it was an opportunity that was a big deal. You know, my parents were small-town lawyers. I used to be a helper in their office. I did all their filing for them every summer, you know, long once I got to be, like, 12. And I filed their papers. And I thought to get this big, fancy job was a huge honor.

But over the years that I worked in the law firm, I began to feel that I wasn't using my time or my talents to help people in the way I imagined 'cause I love the way my mother was a lawyer. She represented families who wanted to adopt a baby. She represented families who wanted to buy a home or small businesses that needed help. Like, she just was a more community-based lawyer. And I just didn't feel like I was using the gifts God gave me to make a difference.

And so that's when I started to really look to my faith as something to strengthen me. It's when I started attending a weekly Bible study, a women's bible study, for about six years. And during that time, I really decided I needed to use all the training and education and opportunities that I'd been given to help others. And that's when I decided I wanted to move my career towards public service. And so that - it took an awakening for me to just recognize we're all built for something and that ultimately if we can use our gifts to help the greater good, that's what life's really about.

MASTERS: This is the NPR POLITICS PODCAST. At the end of every one of these episodes, we talk about what we can't let go for the week - politics or otherwise. What is your - what can you not let go this week?

GILLIBRAND: Well, I'm almost at the point where I've let go...

KEITH: (Laughter).

GILLIBRAND: ...But I'm still slightly annoyed...

KEITH: I feel like I know where you're going.

GILLIBRAND: ...By the ending of "Game Of Thrones." Honestly, come on. Why, why, why did they have to take my favorite characters and really destroy them in the last three episodes? I'm not going to be a spoiler, so I'm not going to tell you why I'm so angry, but I don't like where Daenerys and Jon Snow ended up. I just don't it was necessary.

KEITH: Seems like you're taking it a little personally.

GILLIBRAND: You know, I just feel like there was so many good characters that could've done more, and they just didn't get there. And I'm just sad about it.

MASTERS: Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, thank you.

GILLIBRAND: Thank you.

KEITH: Clay and I interviewed Gillibrand early on Sunday morning. And straight from our interview, she visited a church.

UNIDENTIFIED CHOIR: (Singing) Oh, happiness is mine. Happiness is mine.

KEITH: Mount Carmel Baptist Church, a predominantly black church on the edge of Waterloo.

GILLIBRAND: Our president wants to believe he's strong, but he's not. He's actually weak. Our president is a coward.

(APPLAUSE)

GILLIBRAND: Our president does not stand up to do what's right. He does not stand up to help others. In fact, the gospel call us to help the stranger. He builds a wall.

KEITH: When she finished, Gillibrand took a seat in the second row between her husband and her son, Henry. Pastor F.T. Whitfield jokingly called her Reverend Gillibrand.

F T WHITFIELD: Amen. I don't need to preach today.

(APPLAUSE)

WHITFIELD: Oh, man, I can take a load off. Amen.

KEITH: This was the third episode in our ongoing series where we're taking you on the campaign trail to meet the 2020 candidates. It's a partnership between the NPR POLITICS PODCAST, Iowa Public Radio and New Hampshire Public Radio, with new interviews coming out almost every week this spring and summer. We'll be back as soon as there's political news you need to know about. I'm Tamara Keith, and thank you for listening to the NPR POLITICS PODCAST.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)