PBS高端访谈:我们如何抵制诱惑（在线收听）

JUDY WOODRUFF: With some 10,000 baby boomers hitting retirement age every day, the problem of financial self-control, saving for the future, has become more and more pronounced. Our economics correspondent, Paul Solman, has been following the connection between saving and psychology for years.

The death last week of its seminal research, Walter Mischel, triggers this retrospective. It's part of our Making Sense series, which airs here every Thursday.

PAUL SOLMAN: How hard is it for you personally to save, instead of spending your money right away on something you want?

ACTOR: You know, we're not born knowing all these things.

PAUL SOLMAN: An interview conducted on Sesame Street; itself a few years ago confirmed what many might have suspected, that Grover can no more delay gratification than many of his fellow Americans, who, on average, according to the Federal Reserve, have less than 4,000 dollars in savings, 57 percent of whom have less than 1,000 dollars to their names. But if you can maintain self-control, psychologist Walter Mischel told me:

WALTER MISCHEL, Psychologist: You have got a much more better chance of taking the future into account, and likely to have better economic outcomes.

PAUL SOLMAN: Mischel is known for an experiment he first ran at Stanford in 1960 with 4-to-6-year-olds and that you're probably familiar with: the marshmallow test, which I once ran on age-appropriate Grover. I will give you a marshmallow now, or if you wait a little while, I will give you two marshmallows.

ACTOR: Two marshmallows.

WALTER MISCHEL: Would it be hard to wait?

ACTOR: It would be very hard to wait, yes. Just looking at this marshmallow right now makes me what that marshmallow right now.

PAUL SOLMAN: Leaving aside the dubious charms of the foodstuff, the marshmallow test itself is actually among the most famous and replicated in the history of psychology.

WOMAN: There's a marshmallow. You can either wait, and I will bring you back another one, so you can have two, or you can eat it now.

CHILD: I want two.

WOMAN: OK, I will be back.

PAUL SOLMAN: Of the 600 preschoolers at Stanford on whom it was run, most wolfed down the little pillow of pleasure. But one-third delayed gratification long enough to get another.

WOMAN: You get two! Good job!

PAUL SOLMAN: Follow-up research found that the more temperate types had higher SAT scores as teens. And, later, an ongoing study of 1,000 random New Zealanders from birth to their 30s yielded even stronger findings. Their self-control, or lack of it, almost perfectly predicted their future prosperity. Duke Professor Terrie Moffitt:

TERRIE MOFFITT, Duke University: The children who are of very low self-control are in deep financial trouble by their 30s. Those who are very high self-control are doing really well. They're entrepreneurs. They have got retirement accounts. They own their own homes. And those who are average self-control are right in the middle.

PAUL SOLMAN: One challenge to the marshmallow results has suggested that trust in the experimenter is the key to resisting temptation. But Mischel was more interested in teaching kids how to resist, and found that the successful self-deniers employed very simple strategies.

WALTER MISCHEL: They transform an impossibly difficult situation into a relatively easy one by distracting themselves, by turning around.

PAUL SOLMAN: By putting the marshmallow farther away.

WALTER MISCHEL: Or I can do it by exploring my nasal cavities and my ear canals and toying with the product. The fancy word for it now is executive control. I'm able to use my prefrontal cortex, my cool brain, not my hot emotional system. I'm able to use my cool brain in order to have strategies that allow me to make this miserable, effortful waiting effortless and easy.

CHILD: Ten minutes! Ten minutes! Ten minutes!

PAUL SOLMAN: Or effortful and hard. A question that's played this research, is self-control hard-wired?

WALTER MISCHEL: I think some people find it much easier to exert control than others. But no matter whether one is reasonably good at this overall or reasonably bad at this overall, it can be enormously improved. But the idea that your child is doomed if she chooses not to wait for her marshmallows is really just a serious misinterpretation.

PAUL SOLMAN: And that's why Mischel worked for years with the KIPP charter school program to put his ideas into practice for those who he felt most needed them. The KIPP Infinity Middle School in New York City's Harlem, where, in addition to the three R's, these predominantly poor fifth-graders study character to maximize success in later life, qualities like grit and gratitude, optimism and curiosity, zest and social intelligence, and one skill above all.

WOMAN: What is this talking about, don't eat the marshmallow? Britney in the back.

STUDENT: Self-control?

WOMAN: OK, so we're talking about self-control.

PAUL SOLMAN: In fact, they have been talking about self-control since the first day of school, when teacher Leyla Bravo-Willey gave all of her students the marshmallow test. Walter Mischel's other major collaboration was with the Sesame Street Workshop on a series of videos starring their guru of gluttony to teach tiny tots how to delay gratification. So, a New Year's resolution. We had one more question for Mischel. And it formed the basis of a New Year's resolution story we did a few years ago: how to apply marshmallow test strategies as adults. So if I have a New Year's resolution to drink a little less than I do, what do I do?

WALTER MISCHEL: What you need is a plan that says, at the end of the day, 5:00 is the time that I am likely to have a drink.

PAUL SOLMAN: Right.

WALTER MISCHEL: OK? I have to have a substitute activity at that time, so there will be an alternative, and it'll be very, very practiced. I mean, to give you an example from my own experience, chocolate mousse is generally irresistible for me.

PAUL SOLMAN: His self-control strategy? WALTER MISCHEL: I will order the fruit salad. And that's a specific, rehearsed plan, so before the guy can tempt me with the mousse, I'm already ordering the fruit salad.

PAUL SOLMAN: Walter Mischel died last week at age 88, but, cliche though it is, his work lives on. This is economics correspondent Paul Solman reporting for the PBS NewsHour.

朱迪·伍德拉夫：每天，都有近1万名婴儿潮时代出生的人达到退休的年龄，财务自控的问题以及为未来不时之需做准备的问题变得越来越明显。我台经济记者保罗·索尔曼多年来一直在跟进省钱与心理健康之间的联系。上周，沃尔特·米歇尔的创造性研究失败了，这让我们不禁有了这样的回顾。这是我们《寻找意义》系列节目的部分内容，每周四都会在这里准时播出。

保罗·索尔曼：您私下里攒了这么多钱，没有花在自己想做的事情上，难度会很大吗？

演员：您也知道，我们也是慢慢才懂得这些事情的。

保罗·索尔曼：我们在《芝麻街》上做了一次采访，确认了一件很多人都可能想到的事情，即格罗佛比很多美国同胞差不到哪儿去，因为根据美联储的数据，很多美国人的存款都不到4000美元，甚至57%的人名下的资产还不到1000美元。心理学家沃尔特·米歇尔表示，但如果能实现自控：

沃尔特·米歇尔，心理学家：就有更大的可能性可以规划未来，也更有可能获得更高的收入。

保罗·索尔曼：米歇尔最初为人所知是因为1960年他在斯坦福做了一个实验，实验的对象是4-6岁的孩子。这个实验大家可能都很熟悉——棉花糖测试，这个实验，我在适龄格罗佛身上也曾做过。我可以现在给你一个棉花糖，或者如果你能等一小会的话，我可以给你两个棉花糖。

演员：2个棉花糖吧。

沃尔特·米歇尔：等待是 一件很难的事情吗？

演员：等待是很痛苦，没错。现在只是看着这个棉花糖，我就想立刻吃掉。

保罗·索尔曼：暂不考虑事物本身对人的诱惑力，棉花堂测试本身就是心理学历史上非常知名、经常使用的一个。

女：有一个棉花糖。你可以选择等一会，这期间，我会给你拿另一个棉花糖，这样你就有2个棉花糖了。不过，你也可以选择现在吃掉。

孩子：我想要两个棉花糖。女：好的，稍等哈。

保罗·索尔曼：我们对斯坦福的600名学龄前儿童进行了实验，大多数实验对象都选择了一时的欢愉，赶紧吞掉一个棉花糖。不过，还是有1/3的人愿意放弃一时的满足感，而是等待更大的满足感。

女：现在你有两根棉花糖啦！你很棒哦！

保罗·索尔曼：后续研究发现，行事更稳健的人，其少年时期能获得更高的SAT（学业能力倾向测验）分数。随后就有了现在正在进行的研究，研究对象是1000名随机选取的新西兰市民，研究的时间是从他们出生到他们30岁。这项研究的结果让人更加震惊。他们有的自控能力很强，有的欠缺自控能力，这种能力都可以很好地预测他们未来的财力。杜克大学教授苔利·莫菲特：

苔利·莫菲特，杜克大学：自控能力差的孩子在30岁之前都会陷入财务危机。自控能力强的人都做得很好，都成了企业家。他们有自己的退休账户，有自己的房子。中等自控能力的人，财务能力也是中等。

保罗·索尔曼：有人质疑棉花糖实验的结果，说这个实验的关键就在于要能经得住诱惑。但米歇尔对怎样教会孩子学会抵制诱惑更感兴趣，米歇尔发现，能够成功自控的人是有一些简单的策略的。沃尔特·米歇尔他们会将非常困难、近乎不可能实现的情景转化为相对简单的情况，方式就是转移自己的注意力，比如转过身去。

保罗·索尔曼：将棉花糖放的远远地。

沃尔特·米歇尔：比如抠鼻子啊或者挖耳屎。现在有个更漂亮的词来形容这种做法——行政控制。我可以调动自己的前额皮质、冷静的大脑，而不是感情用事。我可以让思绪冷静下来，从而想出一些策略，让痛苦而又费力的等待变得毫不费力。

孩子：10分钟！10分钟！10分钟！

保罗·索尔曼：如果做不到，就会很痛苦、很艰难。关于这项研究，有一个问题，那就是：自控能力是不是天生的？

沃尔特·米歇尔：我认为有些人会觉得自我控制没有其他人眼中的那样难。但无论一个人是否擅长自我控制，这种能力都是可以后天提升的。但还有一种说法是严重的误解，那就是：如果一个小孩子没有选择等待的话，那他/她的命运就落定了。

保罗·索尔曼：因此，米歇尔通过委办学校知识就是力量（KIPP）的项目，历时多年研究，将自己的想法付诸实践，帮助那些有需要的人。纽约市黑人住宅区的KIPP无限中学，除了这些之外，赤贫的五年级学生还会学习性格方面的知识，来尽可能提高自己日后成功的可能性。此外还会学习到各种品质，比如勇气、感激、乐观的心态、好奇心、热情、社交能力等。

女：我们在讨论什么呢？是讨论不要吃棉花糖的问题吗？后排的布兰妮回答一下。

学生：自控能力的问题吗？女：对，我们是在讨论这个问题。

保罗·索尔曼：实际上，他们从入学第一天起就开始讨论自控能力的问题了，那时候，有一位名叫莱拉·布拉沃·威利的老师对所有学生进行了棉花糖测试。沃尔特·米歇尔还有一些重要的合作伙伴，比如芝麻街工作室，他们给小孩子播放暴饮暴食后果的视频，让他们明白自控能力的重要性。所以，有更强的自控能力可以作为新年愿望啦。我们还有一个问题想问米歇尔。这个问题是几年前一个有关新年愿望故事的背景，即成年人如何利用棉花糖的策略呢？如果我的新年愿望是减少饮酒量，那我应该如何做呢？

沃尔特·米歇尔：你需要的是做计划，规定自己每天晚上5点才能喝点儿酒。

保罗·索尔曼：好的。沃尔特·米歇尔：可以吗？那个时候，我有可替代的事情必须要做，所以就要面临选择了，这时候就很考验自控能力了。我是想从个人经验出发给你一个借鉴，我当然也是经不住巧克力慕斯的诱惑的。

保罗·索尔曼：他的自控策略是什么呢？沃尔特·米歇尔：我要点这个水果沙拉。这是一个很详细的计划，是在心里预演过的。这样的话，在有人拿慕斯诱惑我之前，我已经点了水果沙拉了。

保罗·索尔曼：沃尔特·米歇尔上周去世了，享年88岁。虽然下面的话可能有些陈词滥调，但在这里还是要说他的贡献与我们同在。这里是经济学记者保罗·索尔曼发回的《新闻一小时》报道。