PBS高端访谈:女性要寻求工资平等和待遇平等（在线收听）

AMNA NAWAZ: The women's marches last weekend reflect the continued push for equal pay and treatment. In tonight's Brief But Spectacular, we hear from journalist and women's advocate Cindi Leive. She was Glamour magazine's editor in chief for 16 years and resigned in 2017, after participating in the Women's March in Washington, D.C.

CINDI LEIVE, Journalist: We don't really embrace female rage, which is why bestselling books for women about work are usually called things like Lean In and Not Screw You, Kevin, or Taking Credit for My Work After You Interrupted Me 12 Times in That Meeting, which is a book I would buy. There's a very well-known phenomenon that most women have experienced and social scientists have studied whereby men enjoy interrupting women, often without realizing they're doing it. Even female Supreme Court justices are interrupted three times as often as their male peers. I mean, that's RBG. Women apologize more than men. Hillary Clinton, by the way, is the only presidential candidate ever to use the phrase I'm sorry in her concession speech. Women also tend to pepper their work communication with the word just, as in, I'm just checking on your assignment. Every time a woman speaks directly and clearly, I'm wondering where your assignment is, Derek, she gives permission around her for other women to do the same. This hesitancy to acknowledge that sometimes anger is legitimate is the reason that, in school, children are typically taught that Rosa Parks was a seamstress who was tired at the end of a long day, and not a very self-aware activist who was rightly enraged at her country's inhumane policies. If we tell women, don't be enraged about the fact that you have been denied a promotion, don't be enraged at the rates of sexual assault in this country, we're never going to get anywhere. We have to say, yes, we're angry, and now we're going to fix it. Before the Women's March in 2017, there was intense pressure on the group that was organizing it to pick one issue. Is it equal pay? Is it reproductive rights? Is it more women running for office? And the genius thing about that march was that it refused to make it just one issue. Think about equal pay. You can't possibly discuss that while only looking at the salaries of people in corner offices. You also have to look at minimum wage, because most minimum wage workers in this country are women. You can talk about women's bodily safety without also looking at racial inequities in this country, since women of color are much more likely to be victims of abuse. Women have to stand up for one another. Go to a protest that is for a cause you don't necessarily consider your own. That's what's going to make this powerful. My mom was a biochemist at a time when there weren't that many female scientists. And she was one of just a handful of women in her graduating class from Harvard getting a Ph.D. in bacteriology. Then she was one of just a handful of women to run a lab at the NIH. At a time when other women were marching for their rights and demanding equal pay, her form of feminism was quieter, but it was incredibly powerful. And what I learned from her is that women are as fully equipped for excellence in the things they pursue as men. And people who don't understand that should just get out of the way and let them do it. I'm Cindi Leive, and this is my Brief But Spectacular take on female power.

AMNA NAWAZ: You can find additional Brief But Spectacular episodes on our Web site, PBS.org/NewsHour/Brief.

阿姆纳·纳瓦兹：上周末，许多女性参加了女权运动，这是持续推动工资平等、待遇平等的表现。今晚的《简短而精彩》邀请到了记者兼女性倡导家辛迪·莱夫。他在Glamour杂志当了16年的主编，随后于2017年辞职。辞职前，她曾参加过华盛顿特区的女权运动中。

辛迪·莱夫，记者：我们并不是鼓励女性愤怒，因此，很多面向女性所写的职场书籍通常都是叫《向前一步》、《凯文，我懒得理你》、《不管你如何干扰，我都能继续工作》。这些都是我会买的书。有一个非常出名的现象，那就是：大多数女性都经历过性骚扰，这是很多科学家的研究结果。而很多男性在性骚扰的时候都不知道自己在干什么。即便是最高法院的女性检察官被干扰的次数也是男性检察官的3倍。这很不公平，女性连道歉的次数都比男性多。而且希拉里·克林顿是竞选候选人中唯一一位在败选演说中提到“我很抱歉”字眼的人。此外，女性在职场的交流中还总是说“只是”这个词，比如，我只是在核对你分配的任务。每一次女性明确直接地表达观点时，其实都是在给周围其她女性一个许可，告诉她们可以做同样的事情。比如：德里克，我想知道你分配的任务在哪儿呢？有时候，生气是合情合法的，但人们却不能坦然承认这一点。原因是：在学校里，老师都教孩子们——罗莎·帕克斯是女裁缝师，一个结束了一天的工作之后，已经十分疲倦的人。她并不是一个有自知之明的活动分子，不会对国家毫无人道的政策感到愤怒。如果我们对女性说，不要因为没有升职就感到愤怒，不要因为这个国家存在性骚扰就感到愤怒，那么我们的国家是不会有长进的。我们女性一定要表达：没错，我们就是生气了，我们要解决这个问题。在2017年出现女权运动之前，这个团体已经担负着巨大的压力，要就一个问题组织运动。是否实现平等薪酬了？生育权是否有保证了？女性是否可以竞选职位？关于游行示威奇异的一点是——这些问题都无法成为问题。以平等薪酬为例。只拿大办公室职员的数据来说话是无法推动问题讨论的。同时也要看最低工资才行，因为大多数拿着最低工资的工人都是女性。讨论女性人身安全的时候也不用考虑种族不平等的问题，因为有色人种的女色更容易成为被施虐的受害者。女性要为彼此出头。我们要女性的事业而抗争。只有这样，这个抗争才会强而有力。我的母亲是一名生物化学家。那时候女性科学家还不多。而且，她是哈佛大学细菌学博士毕业的为数不多的女星之一。后来，她又成了在国家卫生研究所运营实验室的为数不多的女性之一。在其他女性都在为女权和平等薪酬抗议示威的时候，她支持女权运动的方式更为低调，但依然强而有力。我从她身上明白：女性在自己所追求的事情上可以和男性一样出色。对于不理解这一点的人，只能亲身实践，让事实对他们说话。我是辛迪·莱夫，这是我本期带来的《简短而精彩》，内容与女性力量有关。

阿姆纳·纳瓦兹：想要观看其他期的《简短而精彩》，可以登录PBS.org/NewsHour/Brief。