PBS高端访谈:如何保护文物的安全（在线收听）

Thompson: New York City's Metropolitan Museum of Art is one of the world's largest and most celebrated museums. Its collections span 5,000 years of history. Its buildings are spread over more than 12 acres, and it's visited by millions of people each year. So, how do you keep all of it safe? For nearly 40 years, that job fell to John Barelli. In 2016, he retired as the Met's head of security, and he details his extraordinary career in a new book, Stealing the Show. I spoke to him recently here in New York.

Megan Thompson: So the enormity of your job is just mind boggling. I mean, how do you keep a collection like that safe and secure?

John Barelli: I had a lot of help. I had over 600 security staff in the department and had a great management team of eight managers who helped me sort of manage that program.

Megan Thompson: There were no major heists under your watch, but there were a few items that did go missing over the years. Can you tell us about some of those?

John Barelli: Well, I first got there in 1978. About a year later, 1979, we got a call that a Greek head was missing.

Megan Thompson: A Greek head?

John Barelli: From one of the pedestals. And at first we thought maybe it was misplaced or you know, a curator took it into conservation or something. But when we got down to the area, we saw it was taken right off its pedestal and the wood was splintered. We said, 'We had a problem.' Well, we were able to recover it five days later on Valentine's Day, which was interesting because when The Met received the object in an acquisition there was a heart carved over its left eye. And when we recovered it, there was another heart carved over its right eye. It was in a locker in Grand Central Station. An anonymous call told us to go look for it. The police went to look for it and they returned it to us. No one was ever arrested.

Megan Thompson: Speaking of the perpetrators, I mean, who steals art? Is it usually an inside job is it somebody from the outside?

John Barelli: Well, I come to the conclusion there's three different types of art theft. And the word opportunity is important. Because we have the internal opportunist, somebody who works within an institution or in someone's home who has opportunity to take an art object. We have a person who maybe comes in from the outside. A construction worker, a visitor who sees an opportunity to take a piece of art. And then we have the professional, or person who is looking for something to steal and who has fences and ways to dispose of these objects illegally.

Megan Thompson: You write in the book, a lot of your job was not just dealing with objects going missing, but you've also got to deal with some interesting objects that showed up at the museum. Could you tell us about some of those?

John Barelli: Yeah, there was this phenomena that is still probably going on today where artists want to be in the museum. So from time to time, we've had people leave paintings at the information desk. We've had graffiti artists like Banksy put things on the wall. And we had two shrunken heads that were mailed to the museum and they wanted to give them to the curator. And it was quickly decided that they didn't want them.

Megan Thompson: They don't want the shrunken heads.

John Barelli: They didn't want the shrunken heads.

Megan Thompson: What did you do with the shrunken heads?

John Barelli: Well, we didn't know what to do with them. That's what the problem was.

Megan Thompson: John Barelli, author of "Stealing the Show." Thank you so much for joining us.

John Barelli: OK. Thank you, Megan.

汤普森：纽约大都会博物馆是全球规模最大，最著名的博物馆之一。其展品横跨5000年的历史，建筑面积超过12公顷，每年有数百万人来到此地。如何保证展品的安全？近40年来，这个工作落到了约翰·巴雷利的头上。2016年，他是博物馆的安全主任，他在一本新书《出风头》中详细描述了他精彩的职业生涯。我近日在纽约与他交谈。

梅根·汤普森：您的工作成绩让人震惊，您是怎样做到将馆藏保护得完好无损的呢？

约翰·巴雷利：我有很多帮手——部门里有600多名安保人员。此外，我还有一个很棒的管理团队，团队里有8名管理人员，他们帮我管理项目。

梅根·汤普森：在您的监管之下，博物馆里没有重大偷盗案发生。过去这些年里，只有一些小物件丢失。您能跟我们讲讲这方面的事情吗？

约翰·巴雷利：我初到那里是1978年。大概一年后，也就是1979年，我接到了一个电话说有个希腊物件的头部消失了。

梅根·汤普森：希腊物件的头部？

约翰·巴雷利：底座上的头。一开始，我们以为可能是放错了位置，可能是馆长拿去保存之类的。但是我们到现场后发现：头是从底座上取走的，木头已经四分五裂了。我们当时就说：有麻烦了。我们得在情人节的5天后恢复这里。这很有趣，因为大都会博物馆收到这个馆藏品的时候，其左眼上刻着一颗心。我们修复后，其右眼上也刻有一颗心。当时，这个物品放在中央车站的某个存放柜里，有人打来匿名电话告诉我们去找一下。警方去现场找到后归还给了我们。嫌疑人至今未知。

梅根·汤普森：说起嫌疑人，我想问是什么样的人偷了艺术品呢？是监守自盗，还是外部有盗窃者呢？

约翰·巴雷利：我的结论是有3种类型的偷窃。有一个词在其中扮演了重要的角色——机会。因为我们内部有机会主义者，某机构或某户人家工作的人有机会获取艺术品。可能也有外来人员。比如建筑工人或者游客看到机会就会拿走艺术品。此外还有专业偷盗者，他们有办法以非法方式处理这些物品。

梅根·汤普森：您在书中写到，您工作的很大一部分内容并不是处理丢失的物品。您也要处理博物馆内一些有趣的物品。您能分享一下这方面的内容吗？

约翰·巴雷利：没错，以前和现在都有这样的现象，艺术家们会想要来到博物馆里。所以，有时候，会有人把画作落在服务台上。有些涂鸦艺术家，比如班克斯，会把画作留在墙上。曾经，我们博物馆还收到过快递，里面是2个收缩了的头。发件人想赠给馆长。馆内工作人员迅速做出决定——不想要。

梅根·汤普森：他们不想要这个快递。

约翰·巴雷利：他们当时不想要。

梅根·汤普森：那你们是怎么处理的呢？

约翰·巴雷利：其实我们不知道如何处理，这也是问题所在。

梅根·汤普森：约翰·巴雷利是《偷窃博物馆》。感谢您参加我们的节目。

约翰·巴雷利：好的，谢谢你，梅根。