PBS高端访谈:美国对乌克兰的援助（在线收听）

LISA DESJARDINS: At the Capitol, the impeachment battle, for now, is on paper, but no less intense, as, today, committees released transcripts of two key witnesses. They are Gordon Sondland, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union, and Kurt Volker, former special envoy to Ukraine. Both were on the key call between Mr. Trump and the Ukrainian president in July. In the 739 pages released today, among the headlines, Sondland revised a critical piece of testimony about whether the U.S. tied nearly $400 million in aid money to specific demands from Ukraine. Yesterday, Sondland filed this, saying he now remembers telling a top Ukrainian official that "Resumption of U.S. aid would likely not occur until Ukraine provided the corruption statement that the U.S. wanted", saying Ukraine would investigate the 2016 election and the energy company which hired the son of former Vice President Joe Biden. A second headline, Sondland added more to his insistence that the president himself firmly didn't want a quid pro quo. And one more key point, the continued influence of President Trump's attorney Rudy Giuliani. His name appears more than 150 times in Sondland's testimony. Sondland was nominated by Mr. Trump to be ambassador to the E.U. in 2017. He's previously owned a boutique hotel chain on the West Coast and he's a longtime GOP donor who had given $1 million to Mr. Trump's inaugural fund. While Ukraine is not in the European Union, Sondland has said the president tapped him to work on the issue. He says there were "three amigos" working on that policy, himself, Energy Secretary Rick Perry, and Volker, whose career path sharply contrasts with the other two. Volker is a three-decade diplomat who has served under Democratic and Republican presidents. President George W. Bush named him to be U.S. representative to NATO. And, in 2017, President Trump named him to be the special envoy helping lead Ukraine policy. He resigned in September. Today's transcripts show Volker arguing against a Biden investigation and trying to win over a president who deeply distrusted Ukraine. Former Ukrainian lawmaker Serhii Lushenko, who worked with Volker for years, said he sees a diplomat trying to straddle sharp politics and good policy.

SERHII LUSHENKO, Former Ukrainian Lawmaker: We see that Kurt Volker was trying to maneuver to be effective as the special envoy, at the same time to be accepted by White House. And my understanding, he decided to give what Mr. Trump was looking for.

LISA DESJARDINS: Overall, Democrats say the transcripts only bolster their case that Mr. Trump withheld military aid and other support for Ukraine to pressure President Zelensky into opening investigations that could benefit him politically. But Republicans insist that Democrats have selectively leaked and withheld information in order to malign the president.

REP. MARK MEADOWS (R-NC): What all of us want is a fair process.

LISA DESJARDINS: And the process continues. Today, acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney got a request from the investigating committees for testimony later this week. Thus far, Cabinet officials have declined these kinds of requests, as did two other Trump officials whose interviews were scheduled for today. As the House remains in first stages, the Republican leader of the Senate today stressed the possible end, that any impeachment charges would come there for trial.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): I will say I'm pretty sure how it is likely toned. If it were today, I don't think there's any question it wouldn't lead to a removal.

LISA DESJARDINS: One thing McConnell doesn't know, how long any trial would last.

丽莎·德雅尔丹：在国会大厦，弹劾之战已经进行到了提交书面文件的阶段，而同样紧张刺激的是——今天，各委员会发布了2位关键证人的证词。这2位证人是美国驻欧盟大使戈登·桑德兰、美国驻乌克兰特使库尔特·沃尔克。这两人都跟美国总统与乌克兰总统的通话事件有重要联系。在今天发布的739页文件中，提要上写着：桑德兰修订了一页关键证词，内容与美国是否会提供近4亿美元的援助金以满足乌克兰的特定需求。昨天，桑德兰写了这份文件，他说自己现在想起曾告诉过一位乌克兰高层官员“如果想让美国继续提供援助的话，乌克兰就要提供美国想要的腐败声明。”桑德兰说，乌克兰会调查2016年总统大选以及雇佣了前副总统乔·拜登之子的能源公司。第2处提要指出：桑德兰补充说自己坚持认为特朗普总统坚定地不想要交换条件。还有一个关键点：特朗普律师鲁迪·朱利安尼产生的持续影响。鲁迪·朱利安尼的名字在桑德兰的证词中出现了150多次。2017年，桑德兰被特朗普提名为美国驻欧盟大使。桑德兰之前在西海岸有一个精品连锁酒店，而且长期以来，他都为共和党捐献了许多资金，也已经为特朗普的就职提供了100万美元的资金。虽然乌克兰不是欧盟成员国，桑德兰曾说过，特朗普指派他来跟进这项工作。桑德兰说，有“三位朋友”着力于这件事情：他自己、能源部部长里克·佩里、沃尔克。而沃尔克的职业生涯轨迹跟另外2个人形成鲜明对比。沃尔克担任了30年的外交官，曾服务于民主党总统和共和党总统。乔治·布什总统任命沃尔克为美国驻北约代表。2017年，特朗普总统任命沃尔克为特使，让他助力牵头乌克兰的政策。沃尔克于9月辞职。今天的证词表明，沃尔克反对拜登案的调查并试图让不信任乌克兰的总统相信乌克兰。前乌克兰律师塞西里曾跟沃尔克共事多年。塞西里表示自己看到一位外交官想要同时施行尖锐的政策和温和的政策。

塞西里，前乌克兰律师：我们看到沃尔克曾努力想成为一位有用的特使，为白宫接受的特使。我认为他最终决定满足特朗普的期望。

丽莎·德雅尔丹：总体来说，民主党表示，证词只是加速了他们的案件——特朗普保留对乌克兰的军事援助等支持，目的是向乌克兰总统泽连斯基施压，让他开启有利于自己政途的调查。但共和党坚持认为，民主党已经选择性地泄露并保留了信息，这样做的目的是给特朗普使绊子。

共和党议员马可·梅多斯：我们所有人想要的是公平的过程。

丽莎·德雅尔丹：这个过程还在继续。今天，白宫代理主任米克·穆瓦尼在这周快要结束的时候收到了几个调查委员会关于证词的请求。因此，目前为止，白宫的一些官员拒绝了这类氢气u，此外还有另外2名特朗普的官员——虽然这2人的面谈被定在了今天。众议院目前还处于前期阶段，参议员的共和党领袖今天强调了可能的结果，也强调了任何弹劾指控都需要经过审理流程。

参议员明奇·麦康奈尔：我会说我本人很确信可能的走向。如果是今天的话，我觉得毫无疑问会被移除。

丽莎·德雅尔丹：有一件事是明奇·麦康奈尔不知道的——审理会持续多久。