PBS高端访谈:美国起诉推特员工（在线收听）

Judy Woodruff: This extraordinary indictment yesterday by the Department of Justice against Twitter, Twitter employee who were working for Saudi Arabia.

Nick Schifrin: This is an extraordinary story, Judy. This is the first time that U.S. prosecutors have accused Saudi Arabia of surveilling people inside the United States. The story is basically two Twitter employees, one of whom is a U.S. citizen, accused of accessing info that we give to Twitter, our private information, basically, and sending that to the Saudi government. And the specific users' info they accessed, those were activists, those were dissidents, those were people critical of the Saudi government. So, bottom line, this is Saudi, the Saudi Arabian government basically infiltrating Twitter to contact and persecute its critics. Earlier this year, my colleague Layla Quran and I, we sat down with multiple of these Saudi critics. We interviewed actually dozens of people about this crackdown. And that crackdown went not only on Twitter, but used Twitter to go beyond Twitter. So we talked about the real-life ways that Saudi was pressuring some of its critics. And we talked to one critic, Abdullah Alaoudh, here in D.C. And how has the Saudi government targeted you while you're in the United States?

Abdullah Alaoudh: I get threats every day from Twitter accounts that a lot of people think are somehow associated to the Saudi government. I mean, just today, I got, for example, a threat from a Twitter account, saying that, we're going to lock you up, and we're going to find you, and we're going to bring you back and put you in a cell next to your father.

Nick Schifrin: Alaoudh's father, Salman, is an outspoken activist and scholar who's released his own videos and called for a change in the Saudi government. He was arrested and now faces the death penalty. Alaoudh said his father's interrogators mention him during interrogation

Abdullah Alaoudh: Talking to somebody about his son and saying that, we are going to arrest him, we're going to torture him, we're going to do this and that to him, it's a way of intimidation and pressure.

Nick Schifrin: And have they also tried to pressure you?

Abdullah Alaoudh: Yes, because they try to send the message that whatever you do is going to be reflected on my father and how they deal with my father.

Nick Schifrin: Alaoudh says how the Saudis deal with him here is surveillance. He says, in 2016, before a public event, he was approached by another Saudi citizen, who said he was there to spy and report back.

Abdullah Alaoudh: The Saudi government has no limits. So, if you're dealing with somebody like this, it's just scary.

Nick Schifrin: And we spoke to Abdullah Alaoudh today, Judy, and he was still receiving threats just today.

Judy Woodruff: So, Nick, what is the evidence, is there evidence that this online surveillance is actually being conducted by the Saudi government?

Nick Schifrin: The indictment is very specific. It says the main recruiter of these two Twitter employees was a Saudi official and heads the private office of Mohammed bin Salman, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia. He is basically described as a secretary of Mohammed bin Salman and one of the people who control Mohammed bin Salman's private money. Bottom line, Judy, this is part of a global campaign by Saudi Arabia to silence its critics. And I should just mention, Twitter sent us a statement. They understand, according to them, that there are bad actors. They are trying to limit some of their employees' access to sensitive information, and they are committed to protecting users' freedom of speech. But, obviously, that failed in this case.

Judy Woodruff: Remarkable. Just remarkable. Two really important stories. Nick Schifrin, thank you.

朱迪·伍德拉夫：昨日，司法部难得一见地起诉了推特，准确地说，是为沙特效力的推特员工。

尼克·斯齐弗林：朱迪，这个消息很不同寻常啊。美国司法部第一次起诉沙特，理由是沙特监控美国境内的人。故事与2名推特员工有关，其中一名是美国公民。此人被控获取了我们发给推特的信息、我们的私人信息，还将这些信息发给了沙特政府。而他们获取信息的用户是活动家、持异见的人，是批评沙特的人。所以这件事触碰到我们的底线了，这是沙特——沙特政府渗透到了推特内部，想要获取评论家的信息并迫害这些评论家。今年早些时候，我的同事蕾拉·古兰和我一起会见了沙特的几名评论家。我们采访就这次的迫害事件采访了一些人。这次迫害不仅涉及到推特内部，还波及到了推特外部。所以我们聊到了沙特对评论家在现实生活中的压迫。我们也跟一名位于华盛顿特区的评论家聊了一下，他叫阿卜杜拉。你在美国的时候，沙特政府是如何针对你的？

阿卜杜拉：我每天都会收到来自推特账号的威胁，很多人认为这种威胁都跟沙特政府有关。比如，就在今天，我收到了某个推特账号的威胁说他们会把我锁起来。说他们会找到我的位置，会把我带回去，跟我父亲关在一起。

尼克·斯齐弗林：阿卜杜拉的父亲名叫萨勒曼，也是一位敢说的活动家和学者。萨勒曼曾发布过一些视频，呼吁沙特政府做出改变。萨勒曼现在已被逮捕，面临死刑。阿卜杜拉说，盘问过自己父亲的人在盘问萨勒曼期间曾提到过阿卜杜拉。

阿卜杜拉：跟某人说话的时候提到这个人的儿子，还说他们要逮捕自己的儿子并加以折磨。我们会这样做的。这种话对萨勒曼来说是一种恐吓和施压。

尼克·斯齐弗林：他们是否尝试过向你施压呢？

阿卜杜拉：有过的。因为他们试过给我发信息说，你做的事情都会由你父亲来承担，我们会虐待你父亲的。

尼克·斯齐弗林：阿卜杜拉说，沙特人一直在监控自己。他说，2016年的时候，在公开事件发生前，也有一名沙特人找到他并跟他说他来这里是做间谍并发送情报的。

阿卜杜拉：沙特政府是没有限制的，所以如果碰上这样的人是会很可怕的。

尼克·斯齐弗林：朱迪，我们今天跟阿卜杜拉聊了下，就在今天，他也收到了威胁。

朱迪·伍德拉夫：所以，尼克，有证据证明这种网上监视的行为是沙特政府所为吗？

尼克·斯齐弗林：指控是很具体的。指控书中写道，雇佣这两名推特员工的人是一名沙特官员，此人是沙特王储萨勒曼私人办事处的负责人。基本上，人们都称此人是萨勒曼的秘书，控制着萨勒曼私有资金的数人之一。朱迪，底线是：这是沙特全球活动的一部分，旨在让评论家缄默不语。我还应该提一嘴：推特给我们发了一份声明。他们认为是有人在扮演恶意的角色。他们在试着限制一些员工对敏感信息的接入，也致力于保护用户的言论自由。不过，显然，就我们今天聊到的情况来看，推特并没有做到这一点。

朱迪·伍德拉夫：超赞。尼克·斯齐弗林，谢谢你分享了两则新闻。