PBS高端访谈:政治和建筑的融合（在线收听）

Hari Sreenivasan: The newly-named North Macedonia is one step closer to becoming the 30th member of NATO after a unanimous vote this week by their parliament in favor of membership. This comes after a protracted dispute with Greece over the country's previous name and even its architecture. It's a political crisis, which as NewsHour Weekend special correspondent Christopher Livesay reports is reflected in the skyline of the capital city of Skopje.

Christopher Livesay: You might not expect big things from the capital of a landlocked Balkan country that's smaller than the state of New Hampshire. But Skopje, North Macedonia, might surprise you. There are the typical tourist sites. Like this ancient fortress. And a sprawling Ottoman bazaar where the local specialty, Macedonian peppers are sold by the bagful. These pale green "zeleni piperki" are on the hot side. But what really makes Skopje special is this. And this. And these. Hundreds of statues. And classical-looking, but actually brand new facades on dozens of buildings in the city center.

Christopher Livesay: What's the name of the square here?

Nikola Srbov: Macedonia.

Christopher Livesay: Macedonia Square.

Nikola Srbov: Yes.

Christopher Livesay: Nikola Srbov, a historian and advisor to the state archives says this was all built by the government just a few years ago, a project called Skopje 2014. The idea was to give a facelift to this formerly communist city, boost national pride and attract tourists too.

Nikola Srbov: In a way the city has grown into something more beautiful than it used to be.

Christopher Livesay: Museums and government buildings boast "columns" and "marble-look-alike facades" that are meant to look hundreds of years old, but are less than 10. There's also a Triumphal Arch. And two new bridges across the Varda River that have on them about 30 statues each. Not everyone has been impressed. The New York Times called the remodeled city one of the "kitschiest" capitals on the planet. Tourists we met seemed bemused.

Tourist: It's amazing. We never, we've been in more than 36 countries. We never seen this number of statues everywhere.

Zoran Zaev: Somebody mentioned that this monument, Disneyland monuments.

Christopher Livesay: Disneyland monuments?

Zoran Zaev: Yes. A lot of comments happen.

Christopher Livesay: Zoran Zaev is the head of North Macedonia's ruling party. He was Prime Minister up until recently. He resigned last month after the country failed to win membership in the European Union. He says the building project, which was launched by the country's previous right-wing nationalist government is partly to blame for setting the country back.

Zoran Zaev: I don't want to comment, the style, but I always comment, to spend one billion euros.

Christopher Livesay: One billion euros?

Zoran Zaev: Yes, for that monuments and museums in the center of our capital, it's really stupid. It's very wrong for developing country where is a lot of poor people.

Christopher Livesay: In fact, while tourism numbers are up in the last several years, it is still a very small percentage of the country's economy. The average net income here is only about 450 dollars a month.

Christopher Livesay: When you walk to the back of the building you see well it's not exactly what it seems. Peeking behind the neoclassical facades gives a glimpse of the reality of how people live. Insulation in most apartments and homes is so bad, heating can cost up to half an average salary. In just one hour south of Skopje, the issue isn't fake facades.

Goce Pavlovski: Cultural heritage to all of us and it should be something that unites us, not divides us.

Christopher Livesay: Archeologist Goce Pavlovski is working on research and protection of the ancient city of Stobi. Here artifacts like these church mosaics date back to 400 AD.

Goce Pavlovski: The games would start in the morning.

Christopher Livesay: Even older is this Roman theater. And older still, ruins of structures dating to the time of Alexander the Great. For Pavlovski it's all part of a bigger picture. Archaeology, he says, shows how people in the region share a single heritage. Modern borders are a kind of political mirage.

Christopher Livesay: Who gets to claim this? Who gets to say this is my history?

Goce Pavlovski: Humanity. I would say humanity. You don't claim history. History is there. History is not the property of certain nations. It's the property of the territory where people live. So the rulers get changed. The countries can change. Their borders can change and the history stays there. As for all the statues in Skopje, well they're subject to history, too.

Zoran Zaev: Part of our citizens are in favor to take out these monuments.

Christopher Livesay: Sounds controversial.

Zoran Zaev: To take them out. To put it in other places. That cost money also. It's not easier to that. Every dollar, every dinar for us is very precious to find solutions to everyday problems. Every what money what we have it we must put in our health system, in our education system, new jobs for our young people. That is the high discussion in our society.

Christopher Livesay: Zaev hopes if his pro-western party wins in upcoming elections this spring it will help renew the chances the country will be admitted to the EU. Building friendships, he says, is more important than building monuments to the past.

哈里·斯林瓦森：新命名的北马其顿共和国即将成为北约的第30个成员国，其议会本周一直投票通过进入北约。此前和希腊因为之前的国名和建筑问题引发了长时间的纷争，这是一场政治危机，就如“周末新闻一小时”特别急着克里斯托弗·利夫赛报道的，首都斯科普里的天际线上这些问题一目了然。

克里斯多夫·利夫赛：大家可能觉得，一个面积比新罕布什尔州还小的巴尔干内陆国家不会有什么大事儿。但北马其顿的斯科普里可能会让你惊艳。这里是典型的游客胜地，就像这个古老的堡垒一样。此外，绵延着的土耳其集市里售卖着一袋一袋的当地特产——马其顿胡椒。这种淡绿色的胡椒特别火辣，这也正是斯科普里的独特之处。还有这个，还有这些，以及上百处雕塑。市中心还有许多建筑有着崭新的侧面，但同时看起来又很经典。

克里斯多夫·利夫赛：这个广场叫什么名字？

尼古拉：马其顿。

克里斯多夫·利夫赛：马其顿广场。

尼古拉：没错。

克里斯多夫·利夫赛：尼古拉是一位历史学家，也是国家档案馆的顾问。他表示，这是几年前政府建造的，是2014年一个名为斯科普里的项目。这个项目的初衷是改善这个曾经有着共产主义氛围的城市，促进民族团结并吸引游客。

尼古拉：从某种程度来说，这座城市已经成长得比过去更好看。

克里斯多夫·利夫赛：博物馆和政府办公楼都以“梁柱”和“大理石外观的正面”而闻名，这种外观少说也有数百年的历史，而非十年而已。这里还有凯旋门。两座新桥横跨瓦尔达河，每座桥上都有大概30个雕塑。不过，也不是每个人能欣赏得来这里的美。《纽约时报》称这座经过改造的城市是全世界最粗制滥造首都之一。而我们也遇到了一些感到困惑的游客。

游客：我们惊呆了都。我们从来没有去过36多个国家，也没有像看到到处都是雕塑的地方。

卓然：有人曾提到过这个迪士尼纪念碑。

克里斯多夫·利夫赛：迪士尼纪念碑？

扎埃夫：没错，关于这个纪念碑，有很多人发表评论。

克里斯多夫·利夫赛：扎埃夫是北马其顿执政党的党魁。知道最近，他还担任着总理的职务。不过，上个月，在北马其顿没能获得欧盟成员国身份时，他离任了。他表示，这个建筑项目是北马其顿前右翼民族党发起的，是导致该国倒退的部分原因。

扎埃夫：我不想就风格发表评论，但我想就10亿欧元的事儿说说我的想法。

克里斯多夫·利夫赛：10亿欧元

扎埃夫：没错，首都中心的纪念碑和几座博物馆耗费了10亿欧元，愚蠢极了。我们是发展中国家，还有很多穷人，所以这样做是错误的。

克里斯多夫·利夫赛：实际上，虽然过去几年间，游客人数在上涨，但对我国经济的贡献度依然占比很小。我们的平均净收入只有大概450美元/月。走到建筑的背面就会看到并不是看起来的那样。透过新古典的假象可以一撇人们真实的生活境况。大多数公寓和房屋的隔绝能力很差，供热成本占平均工资的一半之多。在斯科普里南部一小时车程的地方，问题的关键不在于假象。

戈采：文化遗产是属于我们所有人的，而且它应该起到团结我们而非分裂我们的作用。

克里斯多夫·利夫赛：考古学家戈采正在着力研究并保护古城斯多比。类似这种教堂马赛克的人工产品要追溯到公元400年。

戈采：赛事会在早上开始。

克里斯多夫·利夫赛：这座罗马剧院的年头就更久了。更久远的还有亚历山大大帝时期的建筑残骸。对戈采来说，这是更大图景的一部分。戈采表示，考古可以展现该地区民众分享某种遗产的方式。现代的疆界是政治领域的海市蜃楼。

克里斯多夫·利夫赛：谁来认领呢？谁可以站出来说这是我自己的历史呢？

戈采：全人类。我觉得答案是全人类。历史是无法认领的，历史一直都客观地存在。历史不是某个国家的财产，而是某块生活着人类的地域的财产。所以，统治者会变，国家会变，疆界会变。但历史不变。至于斯科普里的所有雕塑，也都属于历史。

扎埃夫：部分民众支持拆除这些纪念碑。

克里斯多夫·利夫赛：听起来对于这个问题是有争议的。

扎埃夫：拆除并放到别处的话，也耗费成本。不是轻松就能实现的。每分钱对于解决我们的日常问题都至关重要。只要有钱，我们都会放到医疗系统、教育系统以及年轻人的就业中。这也是我们社会热议的话题。

克里斯多夫·利夫赛：扎埃夫希望如果自己支持西方的政党赢得即将到来的春季大选的话，可以助力该国获得欧盟认可的可能。扎埃夫表示，搭建友谊的桥梁比为纪念过去而建造纪念碑来得更重要。