美国国家公共电台 NPR 哈里梅根接受采访曝王室丑闻 遭遇种族歧视曾想自杀（在线收听）

The interview made headlines for days before it was broadcast last night, and somehow, it still managed to exceed expectations. Meghan Markle and her husband, Prince Harry, sat down with Oprah Winfrey to talk about stepping back from their positions as senior members of the British royal family last year and eventually moving to Los Angeles. Over two hours of TV on CBS, they laid out their painful reasons for that decision, including a barrage of racist abuse from British tabloids and a lack of support from Buckingham Palace.

这段采访在昨晚播出之前连续几天成为头条新闻，但实际播出内容还是超出了人们的预期。梅根·马克尔及其丈夫哈里王子与奥普拉·温弗瑞坐下来进行对话，谈论了他们去年辞去英国王室高级成员职务并最终搬到洛杉矶的事情。在哥伦比亚广播公司两个多小时的电视节目中，他们阐述了做出这一决定的痛苦原因，包括英国小报的种族主义辱骂以及得不到白金汉宫的支持。

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MEGHAN MARKLE: They were willing to lie to protect other members of the family, but they weren't willing to tell the truth to protect me and my husband.

梅根·马克尔：他们愿意撒谎来保护其他家庭成员，但他们不愿意为了保护我和我丈夫而说实话。

SHAPIRO: We're joined now by Linda Holmes, who hosts NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast.

夏皮罗：琳达·霍姆斯将和我们连线，她是NPR新闻“流行文化欢乐时光”播客的主持人。

Hi, Linda.

你好，琳达。

LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: Hi, Ari.

琳达·霍姆斯连线：你好，阿里。

SHAPIRO: You were live-tweeting this interview last night. Run through some of the biggest revelations for us.

夏皮罗：你昨晚在推特上直播了这次采访。请介绍一下其中最大的启示。

HOLMES: Well, there were certainly, you know, a couple of details of their lives together that were on the lighter side — the fact that they legally married, you know, more privately a couple of days before their big, splashy royal wedding. They talked about that. They talked about the fact that their baby who's due this summer is a girl. They gave, certainly, as you said, more information about how hard they had tried to get more support from the palace about the media harassment of Meghan.

霍姆斯：当然，他们在一起生活的一些细节是比较轻松的，在盛大的皇室婚礼前几天，他们私下举行了一场合法的秘密婚礼。他们谈到了这一点。他们还提到，二人今年夏天即将迎来的孩子是个女孩。当然，正如你所说，他们提供了更多信息，详细说明了媒体骚扰梅根时他们如何努力地从王室获得更多支持。

But I think what landed the most vividly were really two things. One was how much they both felt the family not only wouldn't deal with the racism that Meghan was facing as a biracial woman — her father is white, and her mother is Black — but the family was part of it. They said that at least one conversation happened between Harry and someone in the family — they would not say who — in which the person sort of inquired about what their children's skin color might be and, you know, how dark they would be and how that would look. So that was one, I think, big thing. And the other big thing was Meghan talking about having had a serious mental health crisis, including pretty serious thoughts of suicide.

但我认为令人最为记忆犹新的是两件事。其一是，他们都认为英国王室不仅不会去处理梅根作为混血女性所面临的种族歧视（梅根的父亲是白人，母亲是黑人），而且还参与其中。他们表示，在哈利和王室某成员至少进行一次的对话中，（他们没有说出那名成员的名字）对方问他们孩子的肤色可能是什么，孩子的肤色会有多黑，会长什么样。我想这是一件大事。另一件大事是梅根称自已有严重的心理健康危机，这包括自杀这种严重想法。

SHAPIRO: The conversation has struck such a chord here in the U.S., including with people who don't typically care about the royal family. Do you think that's because of these themes of racism and mental health that so many people have had experience with can relate to? Why do you think this is?

夏皮罗：这段对话在美国引起了极大共鸣，那些通常不关心王室的人也产生了共鸣。你认为这是否因为种族主义和心理健康这些主题，因为很多人都有过这样的经历？你觉得原因是什么？

HOLMES: I do. I think the racism, you know, certainly exists outside the British tabloid press and the royal family, right? Meghan feeling like she was given no support and then attacked for supposedly failing is very resonant, I think, for a lot of Black women, as are the times that she was unfavorably compared to Kate, Prince William's wife, her sister-in-law, who as a white woman was often praised for doing some of the same things, right?

霍姆斯：我认为确实如此。在我看来，种族主义肯定存在于英国小报和王室之外，对吧？梅根认为自己没有得到任何支持，之后又因为所谓的失败而受到攻击，我想，这令很多黑人女性产生共鸣，就像她和凯特——即威廉王子的妻子、她的嫂子——相比时一样，她处于不利地位，因为白人女性经常会因做同样的事情而受到赞扬，对吧？

And by the same token, I think when she spoke about mental health, if you've been depressed, that resonates even though her circumstances are unique. And I think for a lot of people, this interview also really helped advance the sense of the monarchy as an institution where a lot of the power lies with kind of staff, people who aren't even family members. And that institution, like a lot of workplaces and governments and media organizations, can be profoundly racist and profoundly destructive to people's mental health.

同样，我认为当她谈到心理健康时，如果你感到抑郁，即使她的情况是独特的，也会引起你的共鸣。我认为对很多人来说，这次采访也确实有助于推进君主制作为机构的意识，在这个机构里，很多权力都掌握在员工身上，他们甚至不是家庭成员。而这个机构，就像许多工作场所、政府和媒体组织一样，可能是严重的种族主义者，对人们的心理健康具有严重的破坏性。

SHAPIRO: So speaking of media organizations, as you say, it's not only the royal family that came under a harsh light in this conversation. It was also the British tabloid press. Tell us about that.

夏皮罗：说到媒体组织，正如你所说，在这次谈话中受到严厉批评的不仅仅是王室。还有英国小报。请谈一下。

HOLMES: Yeah. Harry and other members of the family have been critical of the tabloids before. But you know, he spoke Sunday night about what he called a sort of invisible contract between the family and the tabloid press, where essentially, the family feels at the mercy of those tabloids and can't really stand up to them. He said that the firm, which is the word they sort of use to describe the kind of formal and informal power structure, really is controlled by fear of the tabloids.

霍姆斯：没错。哈里和其他家庭成员以前一直对小报持批评态度。但是，他在周日晚上谈到了他所说的王室和小报之间的一种无形契约，在这种契约中，王室受到小报的摆布，但无法真正抵抗他们。他表示，这家“公司”，也就是他们用来描述正式和非正式权力结构的词，实际上由对小报的恐惧所控制。

SHAPIRO: There are so many comparisons being made today to Princess Diana's 1995 BBC interview, which people remember for this famous line about three of us in the marriage...

夏皮罗：今天有很多人将这场采访与戴安娜王妃1995年时所接受的英国广播公司（简称BBC）采访进行对比，人们还记得戴安娜王妃那句著名的“我们的婚姻中有三个人”。

HOLMES: Yeah.

霍姆斯：是的。

SHAPIRO: ...Talking about Prince Charles' relationship with Camilla Parker Bowles. How would you compare the role that Diana's playing to this situation today?

夏皮罗：她谈论的是查尔斯王子与卡米拉·帕克·鲍尔斯的爱情。你认为戴安娜扮演的角色和今天的情况相比如何？

HOLMES: Well, Diana loomed very large over this interview, I think. For one thing, you know, Harry said he's been cut off financially by the family. So the money that he has is actually the money that his mother left him. But more significantly, he spoke about not wanting history to repeat itself, not wanting Meghan to be hurt the way his mother was hurt, which I think is very — you know, that's very sad and very understandable.

霍姆斯：我想戴安娜对这次采访产生了非常大的影响。一方面，哈里称自已被王室断绝了经济来源。因此他所拥有的钱实际上是他母亲留给他的钱。但更重要的是，他谈到不希望历史重演，不希望梅根像他母亲那样受到伤害，我认为这是非常可悲和非常可以理解的。

SHAPIRO: NPR's Linda Holmes of our Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast.

夏皮罗：以上是NPR新闻“流行文化欢乐时光”播客的主持人琳达·霍姆斯带来的报道。

Thank you so much, Linda.

非常谢谢你，琳达。

HOLMES: Thank you, Ari.

霍姆斯：谢谢，阿里。