PBS高端访谈:叙利亚有这样一支超强女兵（在线收听）

JUDY WOODRUFF: Syria is entering its 10th year as a multifront battlefield. Civilians seek refuge from the brutal regime of Bashar al-Assad. And a residual U.S. force remains in the Northeast, guarding against the return of ISIS. For years, the U.S.' closest partner in that effort was a group of Syrian Kurds, an ethnic minority who also fought Assad. Amna Nawaz talks to an author whose new book spotlights a unique part of that fight.

AMNA NAWAZ: In the years-long battle to retake Northeastern Syria from ISIS, a small, but powerful band of fighters led the way, the women of the YPJ, a Syrian Kurdish force. They fought alongside their male counterparts and face to face against ISIS. Author and journalist Gayle Tzemach Lemmon spent years reporting on their stories, including for the "PBS NewsHour." Her new book, "Daughters of Kobani," tells those stories. And Gayle joins me now. Gayle, welcome back to the "NewsHour." Always good to see you. Congratulations on the book. And tell us about the Daughters of Kobani. How did you first hear about them? And what made you want to tell their story?

GAYLE TZEMACH LEMMON, Author, "The Daughters of Kobani: A Story of Rebellion, Courage, and Justice": Oh, thank you. Great to be here. I first heard about them because one of the U.S. special operations soldiers who was part of the book I had written "Ashley's War" called me from Syria in the summer of 2016. And she said: "Gayle, you have to come. I'm working in Syria with this partner force where women are leading in battle. And they're not just leading men, but they also have the full respect of the men they fight with. And the U.S. special operations soldiers have just enormous respect." And she said: "And not only that. It's not just that they're fighting against ISIS. They're fighting for women's equality."

AMNA NAWAZ: And one of those women you tell us about is a woman named Klara. You meet her in Raqqa. Here, actually, is a part from one of your reports for the "PBS NewsHour" from back in August of 2017.

GAYLE TZEMACH LEMMON: She is part of the Kurds' own all-women fighting force, known in Kurdish as the YPJ. They have fought and died right alongside their brothers-in-arms. And some of the most celebrated fighters, including snipers, come from their ranks. She took us to Raqqa's front line, to the site of a still-smoking ISIS car bomb attack.

KLARA, YPJ (through interpreter): They know they are surrounded and can't survive.

GAYLE TZEMACH LEMMON: Her forces, she says, draw strength from the unique and turbulent history of the Kurdish people.

KLARA (through interpreter): It's revenge for the atrocities and injustices that the Kurds suffered in the past.

AMNA NAWAZ: Gayle, what is it that made women like Klara want to take up arms and organize and fight against ISIS in the first place?

GAYLE TZEMACH LEMMON: These were women who originally took up arms to protect their neighborhoods in the chaos of the Syrian civil war. They were just trying to protect their towns and their neighborhoods and their homes from outsiders, right, and to protect the self-governance experiment they had built that had women's equality right at the center of what they were building. Then comes ISIS, and this showdown truly that you could not invent if you tried between the men who bought and sold women as central to their ideology, the men of the Islamic State, who come to the town of Kobani, and they face off against this little force at a time when ISIS had never lost that kept standing up to it. And this force really had women's emancipation and women's equality right at the heart of who they were. And then the Americans come in and catapult this force onto the global stage, and they together hand ISIS its first loss.

AMNA NAWAZ: You mentioned, of course, that work they did alongside U.S. Special Forces, but they are not without controversy, right? I mean, their fighting force, the YPJ, is fighting terrorists in the form of ISIS, but they're also affiliated with another group, the PKK, that the U.S. and Turkey and others consider to be terrorists. So what was that relationship like with U.S. forces?

GAYLE TZEMACH LEMMON: And the relationship is actually one of deep trust and respect. And the U.S. has -- and, really, the story has to go into this and does go into this for readers -- this policy tightrope that the Americans have walked, which said the Syrian Kurds are different than the PKK, from which they are an offshoot. And they have said: We chose this Syrian partner because they are the best hope we have in fighting and holding terrain from the Islamic State.

AMNA NAWAZ: Gayle, these women, of course, their Kurdish goals were kind of brought into alignment with U.S. goals in the fight against ISIS, but we all know, after then, a lot of those Syrian Kurdish forces were kind of left to their own. Having defeated ISIS, they then had to face a Turkish invasion without U.S. support. What does that mean for all these women? Where are they now?

GAYLE TZEMACH LEMMON: So, I often joke I have much more hope in Northeastern Syria than in Northwest Washington, because, regardless of the setback, they continue to push forward. I was in Northeastern Syria maybe about six weeks after the Turkish-backed incursion. And what stunned me, actually, was how much of what they have built and this experiment in women's equality that still stands. In all the towns they took from ISIS, except for two that are now occupied by Turkish-backed forces, they have women co-heading every council. They have women's councils in every town there. So, they continue to have women right at the center of their experiment in grassroots participatory democracy that's aimed at self-rule.

AMNA NAWAZ: Fascinating stories of women on the front lines there, now being developed, I understand, into a miniseries coming to an even broader audience. The book is "The Daughters of Kobani." The author is Gayle Tzemach Lemmon. Thank you so much, Gayle. Good to see you.

GAYLE TZEMACH LEMMON: Great to see you.

朱迪·伍德乐夫：叙利亚作为多前线战场已经进入了第10个年头，平民们寻求躲避巴沙尔·阿萨德残暴政权的庇护，还有一支美国军队留在了东北部以防ISIS(恐怖组织，伊拉克和大叙利亚伊斯兰国)的卷土重来。多年来，美国在这方面最密切的合作伙伴是叙利亚库尔德人，他们也是少数民族，也曾与阿萨德作战。阿姆纳·纳瓦兹采访了一位作家，她的新书聚焦了这场斗争的一个独特部分。

阿姆纳·纳瓦兹：在长达数年的从ISIS手中夺回叙利亚东北部的战斗中，一支规模虽小但实力强大的武装分子——叙利亚库尔德武装YPJ的女性成员——发挥了带头作用。她们与男性战友并肩作战，直面ISIS。作家兼记者盖尔·泽马赫·莱蒙花了数年时间来报道她们的故事，包括为“PBS新闻一小时”撰稿。她的新书《科巴尼的女儿们》讲述了这些故事。盖尔现在和我连线。盖尔，欢迎回到“新闻一小时”。很高兴和你连线，首先祝贺你出版新书。跟我们讲讲《科巴尼的女儿们》这本书吧，你是怎么听说她们的？又是什么让你想要讲述她们的故事。

盖尔·泽马赫·莱蒙，作者，《科巴尼的女儿们》：一个关于反抗、勇气和正义的故事：哦，谢谢，很高兴来到这里。我第一次听说她们是在2016年的夏天，当时是我写的《阿什利的战争》这本书里面的一名美国特种作战部队士兵从叙利亚给我打电话。她说：“盖尔，你必须过来一趟，我现在在叙利亚跟一支由女性领导的合作部队一起工作。她们不但领导男人，还和男人一起并肩作战，美国特种作战部队的士兵也非常尊重她们。”她还说：“不仅如此，她们不仅在对抗ISIS，她们还在为妇女的平等权利而战。”

阿姆纳·纳瓦兹：你跟我们讲的女兵里面有一个叫克拉拉，你在拉卡见了她，这其实是你在2017年8月“PBS新闻一小时”节目中报道的一部分。

盖尔·泽马赫·莱蒙：她是库尔德人自己的全女性战斗力量的一员，库尔德人称之为YPJ。她们和他们的战友并肩作战、并肩牺牲。一些最杰出的战士，包括狙击手，都来自她们的队伍。她带我们去了拉卡的前线，ISIS汽车炸弹袭击的地方还在冒着烟。

克拉拉，YPJ（通过翻译）：她们知道自己被包围了，没有生存的希望。

盖尔·泽马赫·莱蒙：她说她的力量从库尔德人民独特而动荡的历史中汲取力量。

克拉拉（通过翻译）：这是对库尔德人过去所遭受的暴行和不公正的报复。

阿姆纳·纳瓦兹：盖尔，是什么让像克拉拉这样的女性想要拿起武器，组织起来对抗ISIS？

盖尔·泽马赫·莱蒙：这些妇女最初是在叙利亚内战的混乱中拿起武器来保护她们的社区，她们只是想要保护自己的城镇、自己的社区和自己的家不受外人的伤害，是的，保护她们已经建立的以女性的平等权利为中心的自治实验，然后是ISIS，如果你在将买卖妇女作为意识形态核心的、来到科巴尼镇的伊斯兰国家的男人间实验，那么这场决战真的不是你能发明出来的。在ISIS从未输过的时候，他们面对的是一股小小的力量，这种力量使得妇女解放和妇女平等成为了她们的核心。然后美国人进来，把这股力量掷到了全球舞台上，他们一起给了ISIS第一次失败。

阿姆纳·纳瓦兹：当然，你提到了他们和美国特种部队一起做的工作，但她们并不是没有争议的，对吧？我的意思是，她们的战斗力量YPJ正在打击ISIS形式的恐怖分子，但他们也和另一个组织PKK有关联，而美国、土耳其和其他国家都把PKK当成恐怖分子。所以，她们和美军之间的关系是怎样的？

盖尔·泽马赫·莱蒙：他们之间的关系实际上是一种深深的信任和尊重。而美国——真的，这篇报道必须深入到这一点，也确实为读者深入到了这一点——美国的政策就是在走钢丝，称叙利亚库尔德人不同于库尔德工人党，他们是库尔德工人党的一个分支。他们说:我们选择这个叙利亚伙伴是因为他们是我们对抗和控制伊斯兰国地区的最大希望。

阿姆纳·纳瓦兹：盖尔，这些妇女，当然，她们的库尔德目标与美国在打击ISIS的目标相一致，但我们都知道，之后很多叙利亚库尔德武装就只能靠自己了。在打败ISIS之后，她们不得不在没有美国支持的情况下面对土耳其的入侵。这对这些女人来说意味着什么？她们现在在哪里？

盖尔·泽马赫·莱蒙：所以我经常开玩笑说自己在叙利亚东北部比在华盛顿西北部更有前途，因为不管遇到什么挫折他们都在前进。在土耳其支持的入侵发生六周后我在叙利亚东北部，让我感到震惊的其实是他们所建立的很多东西以及关于女性平等的实验仍然存在。在他们从ISIS手中夺取的所有城镇中，除了现在被土耳其支持的军队占领的两个城镇以外，每个城镇委员会都有女性共同领导。那里的每个城镇都有妇女委员会。所以，他们一直把女性作为他们的基层参与式民主实验的中心，这一实验的目的是自治。

阿姆纳·纳瓦兹：据我所知，关于前线女性的精彩故事现在正被制作成一部迷你剧，面向更广泛的观众。这本书叫《科巴尼的女儿们》，作者是盖尔·泽马赫·莱蒙。非常感谢你，盖尔，很高兴见到你。

盖尔·泽马赫·莱蒙：很高兴见到你。