美国国家公共电台 NPR 哥伦比亚连日反税务改革示威变冲突（在线收听）

In Colombia, what started as a protest over a government attempt at tax reform has turned into eight days of anti-government demonstrations.

哥伦比亚一开始为反对政府税制改革尝试进行的抗议演变为持续8天的反政府示威。

The protesters' demands have expanded — an end to police violence, fixes for poverty and inequality, improvements in health and education.

抗议者的要求已经扩大，包括结束警察暴力、解决贫困和不平等问题，改善卫生和教育。

At least 24 people are believed to have died.

据悉示威至少造成24人死亡。

Reporter John Otis is in Bogota this morning. Hi, John.

记者约翰·奥蒂斯今天早上在波哥大。你好，约翰。

Hi. Nice to be here.

你好。很高兴和你连线。

I'd love to get some context for what's going on there. The government withdrew the tax reform bill, and yet that was not enough. Why?

我想了解一下那里的情况。政府已撤回税制改革法案，但这还不够。原因为何？

Well, there are a lot of factors here at play. The government did back down on raising taxes.

有很多因素在起作用。政府确实在增税方面做出了让步。

They sacked the economy minister who proposed them.

他们解雇了提出相关方案的经济部长。

But by then, there had been so much violence in the police response to the initial protests

但那时，警察在应对最初的抗议活动时已使用了太多暴力，

that now people are marching again, basically to demand police reforms and an end to government violence.

现在人们再次进行游行，要求警察改革并结束政府暴力。

To give you an idea, there are at least 24 people dead, and 80 to 90 people may be missing, according to human rights groups.

人权组织表示，暴力事件至少造成24人死亡，另有80至90人失踪。

The police even harassed a U.N. human rights team that had gone to the city of Cali, which is one of the hardest-hit places.

警方甚至骚扰了一个联合国人权团队，该团队已前往受影响最严重的地区之一卡利市。

So this botched response by the government is why these demonstrations have snowballed. People are also just a lot more desperate.

因此，政府的这种拙劣反应正是示威活动如滚雪球般发展的原因。人们也只是更加绝望。

The pandemic has pushed millions of Colombians into poverty,

新冠疫情导致数百万哥伦比亚人陷入贫困，

so they're out on the streets to demand things like guaranteed basic income and better health care.

所以他们走上街头，要求保障基本收入并改善医疗保健。

We've been hearing a lot about guaranteed basic income in this country as well.

我们也听到很多人在谈论保障这个国家的基本收入。

I want to draw some distinctions about the violence because we hear about protesters clashing with police.

我想对暴力事件进行一些区分，因为我们听说抗议者与警方发生了冲突。

You say 24 people dead, 80 to 90 missing. Are all of those people civilians?

你刚提到有24人死亡，80到90人失踪。这些人都是平民吗？

And is it people clashing with police, or is it people gathering peacefully and then police attacking?

是抗议者与警方发生冲突，还是抗议者进行和平集会时遭遇警方的袭击？

Well, it's kind of a mix of things. And yes, a number of demonstrators have resorted to violence.

哪种情况都有。没错，有些示威者诉诸了暴力。

It isn't just all violence on the police side. There's been a lot of burning and looting by protesters.

不仅仅是警方使用了暴力。抗议者也进行了大规模的焚烧和抢劫。

Bus stations have been destroyed. One police officer was knifed to death, and about 600 have been injured.

这导致公共汽车站被毁。一名警察被刀刺死，另有约600人受伤。

In one case, protesters set fire to a police station and nearly burned alive the three officers who were inside.

抗议者甚至放火烧了一个警察局，差点将警局里的三名警察活活烧死。

Now, the government claims that the protests have been infiltrated by criminal gangs and narcos and guerrillas.

现在，政府称抗议活动已被犯罪团伙、毒贩和游击队渗透。

And there is some evidence of that, but the vast majority of the protesters have actually been rather peaceful.

有证据支持这种说法，但绝大多数抗议者实际上相当和平。

However, it's always, you know, the violent ones, the people throwing the Molotov cocktails, things like that, who really grab most of the attention.

然而，总会有使用暴力的人，他们会做出投掷燃烧弹等行为，这些人吸引了大部分的注意力。

Of course. Has the government offered anything to answer the protesters' demands?

好。政府有没有对抗议者的要求做出回应？

I mean, these are big issues — poverty, inequality, police violence, not things that we would think a government could fix overnight.

贫困、不平等、警察暴力，这些都是大问题，不是政府一夜之间就能解决的问题。

But is the government offering any concessions?

那政府有没有做出让步？

Well, that's one of the problems. Besides backing down on tax hikes, the government hasn't really offered very much.

这就是问题之一。除了在增税上有所让步，政府并未提出太多解决方法。

We're 10 days into this national strike — today's going to be the 11th day —

全国大罢工已进行了10天，今天是第11天，

and the government has yet to meet with the protesters to hear, you know, what they're so angry about.

政府还没有和抗议者见面，没有去了解抗议者如此愤怒的原因。

President Ivan Duque, he's met with government ministers.

哥伦比亚总统伊万·杜克总统会见了政府部长。

He's met with the heads of the police and army, but he's not actually met with the people who are out there doing the protesting.

他还与警方负责人和军队领袖举行了会谈，但他却没有见过在街头抗议的民众。

Is this a leaderless protest?

这是无领导抗议活动吗？

It's — you know, it's led by just a wide range of people, and that's one of the reasons why it's so hard to bring this to an end.

抗议活动由很多人领导，这就是很难结束这一切的原因之一。

There's so many different demands out there.

因为抗议者有非常多不同的要求。

OK. Reporter John Otis in Bogota, Colombia. Thank you, John.

好。以上是记者约翰·奥蒂斯从哥伦比亚波哥大带来的报道。谢谢你，约翰。