PBS高端访谈:美军高官曾担心特朗普发动军事政变（在线收听）

Today, The Washington Post published excerpts of a new book by reporters Carol Leonnig and Phil Rucker that contains astonishing details

今天，《华盛顿邮报》刊登了由记者卡罗尔·莱昂尼格和菲尔·拉克撰写的新书节选，书中有一些令人震惊的细节，

of how concerned the military and specifically Joint Chiefs Chair Mark Milley were about former President Trump's actions in the final days of his administration.

显示了军方，特别是参谋长联席会议主席马克·米利对前总统特朗普在他的政府大会最后几天里的行动的担忧。

To talk about that, I'm joined by Yamiche Alcindor and Nick Schifrin.

为了讨论这一问题，我连线了亚米什·埃尔森多并邀请到了尼克·施弗林。

Hello to both of you. Some blockbuster material in this book. But, Nick, let's start with what we were just discussing.

你们好，这本书里有一些重磅信息。但是，尼克，咱们从刚才的讨论开始吧。

And a lot of it has to do with the fears on the part of the Joint Chiefs Chair Mark Milley. What were they?

书里的内容很大程度上和参谋长联席会议主席马克·米利的担忧有关。都是哪些内容呢？

Yes. So, Milley and other military's fears about what President Trump was capable of, about the lack of confidence in his decision-making really accelerated when Trump fired Secretary of Defense Mark Esper.

是的，所以，当特朗普解雇国防部长马克·埃斯珀之后，米利和其他军方对特朗普总统的能力以及缺乏决策信心的担忧加剧了。

That was in early November, when Trump was threatening to fire other senior officials, including CIA Director Gina Haspel, and when he installed loyalists to run the Pentagon.

那是在11月初，当时特朗普威胁要解雇其他高级官员，其中包括中央情报局局长吉娜·哈斯佩尔，并且安排了自己的亲信来管理五角大楼。

Current and former officials I talk to say those loyalists pursued policy changes, traveled the world without any deliberation with other U.S. officials, without sharing details of their conversations.

与我交谈过的现任和前任官员称，这些(特朗普的)效忠者追求政策的改变，在没有与其他美国官员商议的拜访了其他国家，也没有分享他们谈话的细节。

And so Milley, along with Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and others, really tried to hold the line on policy. They froze out Trump loyalists.

所以，米莉和国务卿迈克·蓬佩奥等人努力在政策上保持立场，他们疏远了特朗普的支持者。

They were feared -- they feared that those policies would be made on the back of envelopes. They feared that some of those loyalists might start a war even.

他们担心政策会被匆忙地制定出来，甚至担心一些效忠者会发动战争。

And they feared that Trump could do anything to stay in power, including perhaps creating a crisis in the U.S. that would require the deployment of the U.S. military in the U.S.

他们担心特朗普会做什么事情来继续掌权，包括在美国制造一场危机，这将需要在美国部署军队。

And so, as first reported by Carol Leonnig and Phil Rucker, Milley compared these days to 1933, when Hitler uses an attack on the German Parliament to establish a Nazi dictatorship.

所以，就像卡罗尔·利宁和菲尔·洛克最先报道的那样，米利将此时此景和1933年进行了对此，当时希特勒利用攻击德国国会大厦来建立纳粹独裁政权。

Milley said: "This is a Reichstag moment." His fear was existential. He thought they were capable of a coup.

米莉说：“这和德国国会大厦事件如出一辙。”他的恐惧是存在的。他认为他们有能力发动政变。

He said: "They're not going to F'ing succeed. You can't do this without the military. You can't do this without the CIA and the FBI. We're the guys with the guns."

他说：“他们不会成功的，没有军队是做不到的，没有中央情报局和联邦调查局是做不到的，我们才是掌枪之人。”

Perhaps it goes without saying, but the thought of the president's chief military adviser thinking that the president was capable of creating a coup is remarkable.

虽然事实很明显，但总统的首席军事顾问认为总统有能力发动政变这一想法值得关注。

It leaves you -- it leaves one speechless. But, Yamiche, you, of course, were covering the White House then.

很无语哈。不过，亚米什，你当时在报道白宫。

What is your reporting about what was going on at that time, about what President Trump was doing? And what is he saying about all this right now?

你对当时发生的事情和特朗普总统的所作所为有何报道？目前他是如何回应的？

Well, this reporting and these statements by General Mark Milley, they really underscore what we knew at the time about the Trump presidency late in its tenure, this real critical period between November 2020 and January 2021.

嗯，这个报道和马克·米利将军的这些声明，确实重点强调了我们当时对特朗普总统任期后期的了解，也就是2020年11月到2021年1月这段关键时期。

And, really, what it shows -- what my reporting shows is that White House aides, as well as military officials and those closest to President Trump, those who were working for him in his administration,

我的报道表明，白宫助手、军方官员以及和特朗普总统关系最为密切的人，还有在他的政府为他工作的那些人，

they were increasingly seeing former President Trump as unhinged, as wanting to hold onto power at all costs, and as someone who was scaring them.

他们越来越觉得前总统特朗普精神错乱，想要不惜一切代价保住权力，是一个让他们害怕的人。

And what you see here are military officials making this backup plan.

现在看到的是军事官员正在制定后备计划。

Now, at the time, there were loyalists of President Trump who were pushing back on the reporting, saying, no, President Trump was just wanting to have a free and fair election and that he would eventually concede, of course, something that he has not done even to this day.

当时，特朗普总统的一些忠实支持者对报道进行了反击，他们说，不，特朗普总统只是想要一个自由公正的选举，他最终会承认，当然，这是他直到今天都没有做过的事情。

But what we see here in this reporting is really what we saw in 2020 into 2021.

但我们在这份报告中看到的是我们在2020年到2021年所看到的。

And it was a president who was telling people that he had not won the election -- that he had won the election, rather, telling people that he needed to stay in power, that he was not going to give up.

这位总统告诉人们他赢得了选举，他需要继续掌权，他不会放弃。

That said, today, the president did put out a statement -- the former president, I should say, put out a statement today.

尽管如此，今天总统确实发表了一份声明——应该说是前总统今天发表了一份声明。

I want to read part of what he said. It's a sort of remarkable statement. I was about 400 words.

我想读一段他说的话，这是一个了不起的声明，我记了大概400字，

It said in part: "I never threatened or spoke about to anyone a coup of our government. So ridiculous.

其中写道：“我从未威胁或向任何人谈论过政变，太可笑了，

Sorry to inform you, but an election is my form of a coup. And if I was going to do a coup" -- wait for it, Judy -- "one of the last people I would do it with is General Mark Milley."

很抱歉地告诉你，选举就是我发动政变的方式，就算我要发动政变……”。等一下，朱迪。“马克·米利将军是我最不愿与之共事的人之一。”

And I said "wait for it" because that last part is really remarkable.

我说“等一下”是因为下面这句话值得注意，

He's saying, if I did have want to have a coup d'etat, if I did want to take over the government unfairly and illegally, then Mark Milley wouldn't be who I would want to do it with.

他说如果我真的想发动政变，如果我真的想非法接管政府，那么我也不会拉上马克·米利。

We have never in American history, of course, seen a president talking about a coup d'etat.

当然，我们在美国历史上从未见过一位总统谈论政变。

So, today really is also underscoring that President Trump has not changed his position, and continues to really be someone that makes a lot of people around him very nervous.

所以他今天的话也在强调，特朗普总统没有改变立场，他还是让他周围的很多人感到紧张。

Never, never heard of president hypothesizing about it. So, Nick, after January the 6th, what did the national security apparatus in this country do?

从来，真的从来没有听说过哪个总统会做出这样的假设。所以，尼克，1月6日之后国家安全机构采取了什么措施呢？

Yes, the former, current -- former and current senior officials that I have been talking to say that those fears that they had before January the 6th about what Trump was capable of, about his decision-making only accelerated.

是的，与我交谈过的前、现任和现任高级官员表示，他们在1月6日之前对特朗普的能力、对他的决策的担忧只会加剧。

And so they reiterated with each other that they wouldn't resign. They worked to avoid any crisis that would require the president to respond.

所以他们都在互相重申自己不会辞职，他们在努力避免任何需要总统来回应的危机，

And so they tried to not provoke around the world. They also tried to send a couple of extra messages of deterrence to adversaries, including Iran.

他们试图不去激怒世界。他们还试图向包括伊朗在内的对手额外发出了一些威慑信息。

And then the military deployed unprecedented numbers of service members to protect inauguration in Washington, D.C.

然后，为了保护在华盛顿特区举行的就职典礼，军方派遣了空前数量的军人。

And Milley and others breathe a sigh of relief on January 20 that it went off peacefully.

1月20日，米利和其他人终于松了一口气，幸好是一场平静。

And, as you are reporting and as Yamiche has reported, the president continues to make these claims that he won the election. Yamiche Alcindor at the White House, Nick Schifrin, thank you very much.

正如你和亚米什所报道的那样，总统还在继续宣称他赢得了选举。在白宫的亚米什·埃尔森多，尼克·施弗林，非常感谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。