PBS高端访谈:美国国土安全部被指控虐待移民（在线收听）

Well, new federal numbers released late this afternoon show detentions and arrests at America's Southern border hit an all-time high in 2021.

今天下午晚些时候公布的最新联邦数据显示，2021年美国南部边境的拘留和逮捕人数创下历史新高。

According to data that's out today from U.S. Customs and Border Protection, more than 1.7 million migrants were detained at the border in the 2021 fiscal year.

根据美国海关和边境保护局今天公布的数据，2021财年大约有170多万移民在边境被拘留。

Sixty percent of those were expelled under the public health policy known as Title 42.

其中60%的人是根据公共卫生政策被驱逐的，这项政策被称为第42条。

About a quarter of cases were repeat crossings.

大约四分之一的案例是多次越境。

Those numbers come as Human Rights Watch released internal DHS files of more than 160 reports of alleged misconduct and abuse of asylum seekers by DHS officers.

这些数字公布之际，人权观察公布了国土安全部内部档案，其中有160多份报告称国土安全部官员行为不当和虐待寻求庇护者。

These included claims of molestation and physical and verbal abuse.

这些指控包括性骚扰以及身体和语言虐待。

For more on all of this, I'm joined by Gil Kerlikowske.

想了解更多详情，我连线吉尔·克利科夫斯克。

He served as commissioner of us Customs and Border Protection under President Obama.

他曾在奥巴马总统任期内担任美国海关和边境保护局局长。

And, before that, he was director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy.

在此之前，他是国家毒品管制政策办公室主任。

Gil Kerlikowske, great to have you back on the "News Hour."

吉尔·克利科夫斯克，很高兴你再次来到《新闻一小时》

I wonder if you could -- let's start with this Human Rights Watch report.

我想知道你是否可以--让我们从这份人权观察报告开始。

And I should indicate this is not Human Rights Watch reporting.

我认为应该指出，这不是人权观察的报道。

These are internal documents they got of complaints that were made of this awful behavior by DHS agents against them.

这些是他们从国土安全部特工对他们的这一可怕行为的投诉中获得的内部文件。

What do you make of that?

你对此有什么看法?

A couple of things.

有几件事。

One, you have to understand that it wasn't really until 2014 that Customs and Border Protection actually got their own robust internal affairs.

首先，必须理解，直到2014年，海关和边境保护局才真正拥有了自己稳固的内部事务。

That had been outsourced.

包括那些已经被外包的公司。

And so you need accountability, you need investigations, and you need to be able to do discipline.

因此，你需要问责，需要调查，必须能够遵守纪律。

And that is still an ongoing issue.

但这仍然是一个持续的问题。

But the number of complaints is certainly concerning.

但投诉的数量肯定是令人担忧的。

You have to remember, too, that Border Patrol has over 20,000 agents.

还必须记住，边境巡逻队有2万多名特工。

They have had literally, during the time that those numbers came forward, millions of encounters with people crossing the border illegally.

在这些数据公布的这段时间里，他们遇到了数百万非法越境的人。

Some are just families.

有些只是一家人。

Some are willing, more than willing to surrender immediately.

有些人愿意，甚至更愿意立即放弃。

But there are other people that aren't quite as willing to surrender.

但还有其他人不太愿意放弃。

I hear everything that you're saying, but is -- the critics would argue that this tells us something about the culture with -- inside those agencies.

你说的我都听到了，但评论家们会争辩说，这告诉了我们一些关于这些机构内部的文化。

What do you make of that?

你对此有何感想？

So I think there's another side to the culture of that agency.

所以我认为该机构的文化还有另一面。

And I got to see it firsthand in the summer of 2014, with 68,000 unaccompanied children being handled by the Border Patrol.

在2014年夏天，我亲眼目睹了这一幕，6.8万名无人陪伴的儿童由边境巡逻队看管。

I saw them bringing in T-shirts and clothing from their own kids at home.

我看到他们在家里从自己的孩子那里拿来了T恤和衣服。

I saw them microwaving burritos, all without the support of other parts of the U.S. government.

我看到他们在用微波炉加热墨西哥卷，所有这些都不是出于美国政府其他部门的支持。

So, you know, there is certainly that.

所以，这肯定是有的。

Remember, too, that the Border Patrol is one of the most the is one of the most diverse, particularly with Hispanic officers, in the country.

还要记住，边境巡逻队是美国最大的队伍之一，也是最多样化的队伍之一，尤其是这个国家有西班牙裔警官。

So there is probably only about one degree of separation.

因此，可能只有一种程度的分离。

So I think that these complaints are serious.

所以我认为这些抱怨并不严重。

They need to be investigated thoroughly and discipline, where appropriate, needs to be taken.

需要对他们进行彻底调查，并在适当的情况下采取纪律措施。

OK, so let's turn to this seeming record number of people coming across the border from a large range of countries.

好的，那么让我们来看看这一看似创纪录的来自多个国家的跨境移民人数。

Why do you believe this is occurring?

你为什么相信会发生这种事?

Because the critics of the Biden administration argue that it is

因为拜登政府的批评者认为，

this administration's policies and this administration's more sort of open-ended and warm-hearted language that has invited this large number of people to come.

正是本届政府的政策，以及本届政府更加开放和温暖的的语言，才邀请了这么多人前来。

Well, I think, as the nominee for Customs and Border Protection said at his hearing the other day, the law needs to be enforced, but it needs to be enforced humanely.

嗯，我认为，正如海关和边境保护局提名人在前几天的听证会上所说的那样，法律需要执行，但需要人道地执行。

And, frankly, during the last four years under the Trump administration,

坦率地说，在特朗普政府领导下的过去四年里，

I think that there was not the attention being paid to enforcing the law humanely, and I think that that is beginning to change,

我认为人们没有关注人道执法，我认为这种情况正在开始改变，

if that's as a result of President Biden and his seemed openness to people coming into the country.

如果这是因为拜登总统似乎对进入这个国家的人持开放态度的话。

But, again, the law is still the law.

但是，再说一次，法律仍然是法律。