美国国家公共电台 NPR 俄罗斯与北约进入最后一轮谈判（在线收听）

Russia and the West go into the third and final leg of a diplomatic triathlon today.

今天，俄罗斯和西方进入外交“铁人三项”的第三站，也是最后一站。

It's part of a series of talks this week over the fate of Ukraine.

这是本周有关乌克兰命运的一系列会谈的一部分。

The first two rounds produced no agreements that would lead Russia to stand down the 100,000 troops deployed near its border with Ukraine.

前两轮谈判没有达成任何协议，导致俄罗斯放弃部署在俄乌边境附近的10万军队。

One of the sticking points here has been Russia's demand that Ukraine never be allowed to get into NATO.

其中一个症结是俄罗斯要求永不允许俄罗斯加入北约。

The alliance's entire reason for being, back when it was established, was to be a check against Russian aggression. So what is the way forward here?

北约成立之初的全部原因，就是为了遏制俄罗斯的侵略。那么下一步该怎么做呢?

NPR's Charles Maynes is following the developments from Moscow.

NPR新闻的查尔斯·梅恩斯正在莫斯科追踪事态发展。

So why hasn't there been any progress in these talks between Russia and NATO allies?

那么，为什么俄罗斯和北约盟国之间的会谈没有取得任何进展呢?

Yeah. You know, the two sides seem to be really talking past one another.

是的。你知道的，双方似乎都在各说各话。

The West wants Russia to deescalate its forces near Ukraine.

西方希望俄罗斯减少在乌克兰附近的军事力量。

They're fearing of an invasion, of course.

当然，他们害怕入侵。

Russia, clearly using the threat of force while claiming not to, is demanding Ukraine be barred from NATO membership, as you mentioned.

正如你所提到的，俄罗斯显然在使用武力威胁，但却声称不使用武力，要求禁止乌克兰加入北约。

It also wants the alliance to roll back its presence in Eastern Europe entirely.

它还希望北约完全撤出其在东欧的驻军。

Now, the U.S. and its allies clearly see these Russian demands as mostly nonstarters.

现在，美国及其盟友显然认为俄罗斯的这些要求基本上是不可能的。

Ukraine may or may not become a member of NATO.

乌克兰可能会成为北约成员国，也可能不会。

But it's not up to Russia to decide, they say.

但他们表示，这不能由俄罗斯来决定。

And they're warning of massive sanctions and adding forces in the region should Russia pursue aggression.

他们警告称，如果俄罗斯寻求侵略，将对该地区实施大规模制裁并增加兵力。

Yesterday, we heard from Russia's chief negotiator, this is Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko, who said NATO - that if it did come to that, Moscow would hit back.

昨天，我们从俄罗斯首席谈判代表、副外长亚历山大·格鲁什科那里听到消息，他表示，如果真的发生这种情况，莫斯科将予以回击。

So Grushko here says that if NATO chooses a policy of trying to contain Russia, Russia will respond with countermeasures.

因此，格鲁什科表示，如果北约选择试图遏制俄罗斯的政策，俄罗斯将采取反制措施。

And if they try to intimidate Russia, they'll respond back.

如果他们试图威胁俄罗斯，他们就会反击。

OK. So what happens today in this third and final round of talks?

好的。那么，今天第三轮、也是最后一轮会谈将发生什么?

Well, you know, today is in a bigger venue.

你知道的，今天在一个更大的地方。

This is the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, with its 57 members. That includes Ukraine.

这就是欧洲安全与合作组织，有57个成员国。这包括乌克兰。

This is the first time they've been present in all these talks about their future.

这是他们第一次出现在这些关于他们未来的讨论中。

But Russians have really signaled that they see the U.S. as the key decision-maker here.

但是俄罗斯方已经发出信号，他们认为美国是这里的关键决策者。

They seem to prefer, you know, the optics of a bilateral talk with the U.S., the old Cold War superpower format for engagement.

他们似乎更喜欢与美国进行双边对话的方式，这是冷战时期的超级大国进行接触的旧模式。

How closely are Russians following all this?

俄罗斯人对这一切有多关注?

Well, you know, Ukraine is routinely portrayed on state media as this dysfunctional place where nationalists run amuck.

你知道，乌克兰在官方媒体上通常被描绘成民族主义者横行、功能失调的地方。

There's certainly a lot of talk about how disruptive any new sanctions might be among Russians.

当然，很多人都在谈论任何新的制裁可能会对俄罗斯造成多大的破坏。

And there's also concern about the possibility of conflict with NATO.

还有人担心与北约发生冲突的可能性。

A recent poll found that over 50% were worried about the outbreak of a world war.

最近的一项民意调查发现，超过50%的人担心世界大战的爆发。

That said, frankly, a lot of coverage has been devoted to other issues, for example, what's happening in neighboring Kazakhstan.

也就是说，坦率地说，很多报道都专注于其他问题，例如，邻国哈萨克斯坦正在发生什么。

This is where Russia deployed troops as part of a regional security force to quell protests last week.

俄罗斯上周在这里部署了军队，作为地区安全部队的一部分，以平息抗议活动。

Speaking of that, Russia still has forces there. So where do things stand with that?

说到这，俄罗斯仍然在那里有军队。 那么现在情况如何呢?

You know, the Russia-led troops began their formal withdrawal this morning, handing over posts to the Kazakh army with a ceremony in Almaty.

俄罗斯领导的军队今天上午开始正式撤军，在阿拉木图举行仪式将重要场所移交给哈萨克斯坦军队。

And so as what you're hearing suggests, the Russian-led mission has been portrayed here as a great success,

正如你所听到的，俄罗斯领导的任务在这里被描述为一个巨大的成功，

Moscow Coming to its neighbor's aid in preventing both what the Kremlin and the authorities in Kazakhstan now say was an attempt by foreign-backed terrorist to overthrow the government.

莫斯科来帮助它的邻居，阻止克里姆林宫和哈萨克斯坦当局现在所说的外国支持的恐怖分子试图推翻政府。

And [in] going forward, Russian President Vladimir Putin says this Russian-led security force is ready to defend other former Soviet states from Western-backed...

展望未来，俄罗斯总统弗拉基米尔·普京表示，俄罗斯领导的安全部队已经准备好保护其他前苏联国家免受西方支持的威胁……

Quickly, what has this meant for Putin?

快点，这对普京意味着什么?

Well, you know, this operation in Kazakhstan in some ways projects onto Russia's negotiations with the West over Ukraine.

你知道，哈萨克斯坦的行动在某种程度上反映了俄罗斯与西方就乌克兰问题的谈判。

And it signals that Russia is ready to defend what it sees as its sphere of influence, whether the West likes it or not.

这表明，不管西方喜不喜欢，俄罗斯都准备捍卫自己的势力范围。