PBS高端访谈:基辛格与中东外交艺术（在线收听）

Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger was a central character in Israel era peace negotiations during the Nixon and Ford administrations.

前国务卿亨利·基辛格是尼克松和福特政府期间以色列和平谈判的核心人物。

A new book, "Master of the Game: Henry Kissinger and the Art of Middle East Diplomacy," chronicles the challenges and strategy behind the scenes.

一本名为《游戏大师：亨利·基辛格与中东外交艺术》的新书记录了幕后的挑战和战略。

I spoke earlier with author and former U.S. Ambassador to Israel Martin Indyk.

早些时候，我与作家、前美国驻以色列大使马丁·因迪克进行了交谈。

Martin Indyk, welcome to the "NewsHour."

马丁·因迪克，欢迎来到“新闻一小时”节目。

It's very good to have you with us.

很高兴我们能和你在一起。

Congratulations on the book.

祝贺你出了这本书。

Let me ask you about what you have written here.

我来问问你这本书写了些什么。

We know Henry Kissinger, enormously influential figure in American foreign policy, and yet he's been out of office for, what, over 45 years.

我们知道亨利·基辛格，他在美国外交政策中具有巨大的影响力，但他已经下台超过45年了。

And people think of him, many do, in connection with China, Vietnam.

但人们会想到他，很多人确实会想到他，尤其是与中国和越南有关的问题。

But you have chosen to focus on the Middle East.Why?

但你选择了把重点放在中东。为什么？

Well, two reasons, Judy.

嗯，有两个原因，朱迪。

And thank you very much for having me.

非常感谢你们邀请我。

The first is that Kissinger's time as secretary of state, his four years as secretary of state, was essentially consumed with Middle East peacemaking.

首先是因为基辛格担任国务卿的时间，他担任国务卿四年，基本上把时间都花在了中东和平上。

And that's not commonly understood.

而这并不是人们普遍理解的。

But the second reason was a personal one.

但第二个原因是个人原因。

You know I have been involved in peacemaking, both in the Clinton administration and then in the Obama administration.

你们知道，我在克林顿政府和奥巴马政府中都参与了调停工作。

And in the Clinton administration, it all blew up in our face.

而在克林顿政府，这一切都在我们面前失败了。

And in the Obama administration, when I was a special envoy for Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, it failed again.

在奥巴马政府任职期间，当我担任巴以谈判特使时，谈判再次失败。

In fact, the parties were further apart at the end of the negotiations than at the beginning.

事实上，在谈判结束时，各方的分歧比开始时更大。

And that was the last negotiations that's been held.

这是举行的最后一次谈判。

So, I wanted to go back and try to learn from the master of the game, which is the title of the book, how to make peace and how not to make peace, because he was so successful at laying the foundations of the Arab-Israeli peace process back in the 1970s.

所以，我想回去试着向这个游戏的大师学习，这就是这本书的标题，如何缔造和平，以及如何毁掉和平，因为他在20世纪70年代非常成功地为阿拉伯-以色列和平进程奠定了基础。

You say he was successful at laying the foundation, and yet peace still eludes the Middle East.

你说他成功地奠定了基础，但中东仍然没有实现和平。

There have been a movement here, a movement there, but it still isn't a reality.

这里有一场运动，那里有一场运动，但这仍然不是现实。

And you write about the art of diplomacy, as much as the strategy that he pursued.

你写的是外交艺术，就像他追求的战略一样。

Why does that matter?

为什么这很重要?

Well, first of all, significant progress has been made.

那么首先呢，我们已经取得了重大的进展。

It depends on how you look at the glass.

这取决于你怎么看。

But is -- the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt and the two agreements that he negotiated between Israel and Egypt laid the foundations for the peace treaty, took Egypt out of the conflict with Israel.

但是，以色列和埃及之间的和平条约，以及他在以色列和埃及之间谈判达成的两项协议，为签署和平条约奠定了基础，使埃及摆脱了与以色列的冲突。

And then, he also -- Kissinger also negotiated a disengagement agreement between Israel and Syria, which has lasted to this day, despite the collapse of order in Syria itself.

然后，他还-基辛格还促成了以色列和叙利亚之间的一项脱离接触协议，该协议一直持续到今天，尽管叙利亚本身的秩序崩溃了。

And those agreements enabled the Israel-Egypt peace treaty, eventually the Israel-Jordan peace treaty.

这些协议促成了以色列-埃及和平条约，最终促成了以色列-约旦和平条约。

The sticking point is with the Israelis and Palestinians.

症结在于以色列人和巴勒斯坦人。

And Kissinger's approach was I think what we can learn from that period.

我认为基辛格的方法是我们可以从那个时期学到的东西。

He was very cautious, incremental.

他非常谨慎，循序渐进。

He invented the concept of step-by-step diplomacy, because he was skeptical that both sides were actually ready to make the sacrifices that could produce agreement.

他建立了循序渐进外交的概念，因为他怀疑双方是否真的准备好做出牺牲，以达成协议。

And, therefore, he thought it required time and getting the parties used to making concessions to each other.

因此，他认为这需要时间，需要让各方习惯于相互让步。

And Yitzhak Rabin, ironically, because he had stood up to Kissinger in the days when he was secretary of state, when he became prime minister, adopted a Kissingerian approach.

具有讽刺意味的是，伊扎克·拉宾，因为在他担任国务卿和总理时，他与基辛格针锋相对，但却采取了基辛格式的方法。

And after Rabin was assassinated, we -- and I was part of that effort -- we jumped to try to end the conflict.

拉宾被暗杀后，我们——我也是其中一员——我们马上努力结束冲突。

And every president since has been trying to end the conflict.

自那以后，每一位总统都在努力结束冲突。

And that was something that Kissinger would have never done, because he didn't believe the parties were ready.

这是基辛格永远不会做的事情，因为他认为各方还没有准备好。

In fact, he was very wary of presidents who -- American presidents who sought immortality by seeking to grasp the Holy Grail of Israeli-Palestinian peace.

事实上，他对那些通过寻求抓住以巴和平的圣杯来寻求不朽的美国总统非常警惕。

So that's why I think the major lesson from his approach was, we need to take it more gradually, step by step, incrementally, and rebuild the confidence and trust.

因此，我认为从他的方法中得到的主要教训是，我们需要更缓慢地对待它，一步一步地，循序渐进，重建信心和信任。