美国国家公共电台 NPR--Pressure mounts on the U.S. and Western allies to help Ukraine

Pressure mounts on the U.S. and Western allies to help Ukraine

Transcript¹

With Ukrainian forces pleading for greater military assistance from the U.S. and the western alliance, NPR's Leila Fadel talk to Pentagon spokesman John Kirby about why a no-fly zone is off the table.

LEILA FADEL, HOST:

As we heard from Ryan Lucas, a top Ukrainian official says a human catastrophe² is unfolding in the southern city of Mariupol. Pressure is mounting on the U.S. and NATO allies to do more militarily to curb³ the bloodshed on the ground. This week, the U.S. rejected Poland's plan to send fighter jets to Ukraine. So what can the Ukrainians expect in the way of military assistance as Russian forces bear down on Kyiv and other major cities? Joining me now is Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby. Admiral Kirby, good morning. And thank you for being on the program.

JOHN KIRBY: Good morning, Leila. It's good to be with you.

FADEL: So as I mentioned, I'm here in Ukraine. And everyone we speak to, from top officials to regular citizens, want more from the West, namely a no-fly zone, as Ukraine's president has asked for. Why is that off the table?

KIRBY: Well, a no-fly zone has to be enforced. And the key word about that is force. You have to be willing to engage in armed force to defend a no-fly zone. It is basically combat. You have to be willing to shoot down other aircraft. And you have to be willing to be shot at. And our view is that puts the United States in direct military confrontation⁴ with the Russians. And that has a very, very strong potential of escalating⁵ this conflict well beyond what it already is. And it's already devastating⁶. We understand that. But having U.S. aircraft in the air in combat versus⁷ Russian aircraft and pilots is only going to escalate⁸ this conflict. And that's not - not only is that not good for our national security interests, it's not good for Europe. And it's absolutely not going to be good for the Ukrainians to have this war get bigger, broader and deadlier.

FADEL: Well, this moment is also, as you mentioned, really not good for the Ukrainians. Is there a red line for the U.S. and NATO allies that would prompt military engagement in the form of a no-fly zone?

KIRBY: The president has been clear. Commander in chief has made it very clear. There will be no U.S. troops fighting in Ukraine. That includes in the skies over Ukraine. Again, we have to be very careful that we don't make decisions, we don't take actions, that escalate this conflict between two nuclear-powered nations, the United States and Russia. I think we can all understand that an escalation⁹ here, again, would not be - not only unhelpful to our national security interest, but to the interests of everybody in Europe, including those in Ukraine. So we are not going to be putting U.S. troops on the ground in Ukraine to fight in this war. And this president continues to believe that that would be a recipe for a much, much broader war and, again, not in the interests in the people of Ukraine.

FADEL: A very dangerous moment. Where is the U.S. planning - I mean, what is the U.S. planning to supply to Ukraine in terms of heavy weaponry?

KIRBY: Well, it's not just planning, it's action. We're delivering - including over the last 24 hours, we've been delivering shipments of arms and material that we know that the Ukrainians need and want and are using quite effectively. And there's more shipments coming. And it's not just from us...

FADEL: And specifically, sir...

KIRBY: ...It's from 14 other nations. I'm sorry?

FADEL: Specifically, Admiral, we've spoken to Ukrainian fighters that say their rifles are no match for Russian missiles, aircrafts. So are we talking anti-tank, anti-aircraft munitions¹⁰ here?

KIRBY: Sure. Yeah, we are talking anti-armor weapons. We're talking air defense¹¹ weapons. And again, there's more coming. There are 14 other nations that are also delivering security assistance material to Ukraine at various points and through various avenues. And we are helping¹² coordinate¹³ those deliveries. And they're going to continue for as long and as much as we're able to get them in there. And I would add that these systems that they're getting, they're using very, very effectively. They're using MANPADS, shoulder-fired air defense systems. They're using the Javelin¹⁴ anti-tank missile quite effectively. They are using their small arms and ammunition¹⁵. And they have still in their possession a majority of their surface-to-air missile capability¹⁶.

So we're also looking - as I've said recently, we're looking to other allies and partners who have surface-to-air missile capabilities¹⁷ that match what the Ukrainians are trained on and know how to use to see if they have additional systems to provide. And they are being very, very effective with their surface-to-air missile capability, both from a personal launch system as well as more mobile launch systems. The airspace over Ukraine is contested. The Russians certainly have more aircraft. They certainly have more missiles. And they've got the whole country blanketed virtually with surface-to-air missile capabilities. But that has not stopped the Ukrainians from being very effective in that realm.

FADEL: We have seen the Ukrainian armed forces put up a pretty hardy¹⁸ fight against a bigger military. And you mention these big concerns about a wider war here. We've been speaking to the displaced refugees, citizens of Ukraine, for almost two weeks now. And they all say a version of this. They feel like a pawn¹⁹ in a proxy²⁰ war between superpowers, Russia, the U.S., China. They say choosing to turn to the West, wanting to be part of the West, is what brought this war upon them. And yet, they say they're not getting the Western help they feel they need, including that no-fly zone. What would you say to them?

KIRBY: Well, first of all, I think we've all watched, here at the Pentagon - just like elsewhere around the world - with awe²¹ and inspiration, the incredible bravery, the courage, the skill, the endurance, the resilience of the Ukrainian people as they fight for their country, fight for their fellow citizens. And sadly, as some of them are killed and wounded and have to flee their homes, none of this had to happen. This isn't a proxy war. This is a war of choice that Mr. Putin has perpetrated on the people of Ukraine. He had every option diplomatically to avoid this war before the 24th of February. And he basically ignored them and chose to go headlong into an armed conflict with a nation state which posed no threat to him or to anybody else. And so our message is, to the Ukrainians, we will stand with you. We know the sacrifices you are making. And we are going to be working, as we have for - so hard and for so long, to get them the kinds of material and assistance that they need to fight back, to get them the humanitarian²² assistance that we know they need right now in desperate measure...

FADEL: Yeah.

KIRBY: ...To work with neighboring countries, like Poland, to help with whatever we can do on the evacuation site.

FADEL: I just want to ask you one thing here before we run out of time.

KIRBY: Sure.

FADEL: We know what Russian forces are capable of. In the Russian region of Chechnya, we saw the capital city, Grozny, flattened²³. In Syria, Aleppo was hit with punishing airstrikes, thousands dead. At what point will Russia cross a red line for the U.S.? Is it a Grozny-like situation in Kyiv?

KIRBY: I think what's more helpful is not guessing and speculating about red lines, but looking for ways to continue - to end this war. So we are glad that the Russians and the Ukrainians have begun to have talks. We obviously know that they haven't gone anywhere in terms of real outcomes. But we're glad that there's still some diplomacy²⁴ occurring. And what we're going to do is focus on making sure that the Ukrainians continue to defend themselves and that NATO can defend itself should there be any threat to NATO territory.

FADEL: Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby. Thank you for taking the time.

KIRBY: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

(SOUNDBITE OF THIS WILL DESTROY YOU'S "THEY MOVE ON TRACKS OF NEVER-ENDING LIGHT")

1 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

2 catastrophe   

n.大灾难，大祸

参考例句：

• I owe it to you that I survived the catastrophe.亏得你我才大难不死。
• This is a catastrophe beyond human control.这是一场人类无法控制的灾难。

3 curb   

n.场外证券市场，场外交易；vt.制止，抑制

参考例句：

• I could not curb my anger.我按捺不住我的愤怒。
• You must curb your daughter when you are in church.你在教堂时必须管住你的女儿。

4 confrontation   

n.对抗，对峙，冲突

参考例句：

• We can't risk another confrontation with the union.我们不能冒再次同工会对抗的危险。
• After years of confrontation,they finally have achieved a modus vivendi.在对抗很长时间后，他们最后达成安宁生存的非正式协议。

5 escalating   

v.（使）逐步升级( escalate的现在分词 )；（使）逐步扩大；（使）更高；（使）更大

参考例句：

• The cost of living is escalating. 生活费用在迅速上涨。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• The cost of living is escalating in the country. 这个国家的生活费用在上涨。 来自辞典例句

6 devastating   

adj.毁灭性的，令人震惊的，强有力的

参考例句：

• It is the most devastating storm in 20 years.这是20年来破坏性最大的风暴。
• Affairs do have a devastating effect on marriages.婚外情确实会对婚姻造成毁灭性的影响。

7 versus   

prep.以…为对手，对；与…相比之下

参考例句：

• The big match tonight is England versus Spain.今晚的大赛是英格兰对西班牙。
• The most exciting game was Harvard versus Yale.最富紧张刺激的球赛是哈佛队对耶鲁队。

8 escalate   

v.(使)逐步增长(或发展)，(使)逐步升级

参考例句：

• It would tempt Israel's neighbors to escalate their demands.它将诱使以色列的邻国不断把他们的要求升级。
• Defeat could cause one side or other to escalate the conflict.失败可能会导致其中一方将冲突升级。

9 escalation   

n.扩大，增加

参考例句：

• The threat of nuclear escalation remains. 核升级的威胁仍旧存在。 来自辞典例句
• Escalation is thus an aspect of deterrence and of crisis management. 因此逐步升级是威慑和危机处理的一个方面。 来自辞典例句

10 munitions   

n.军火，弹药；v.供应…军需品

参考例句：

• The army used precision-guided munitions to blow up enemy targets.军队用精确瞄准的枪炮炸掉敌方目标。
• He rose [made a career for himself] by dealing in munitions.他是靠贩卖军火发迹的。

11 defense   

n.防御，保卫；[pl.]防务工事；辩护，答辩

参考例句：

• The accused has the right to defense.被告人有权获得辩护。
• The war has impacted the area with military and defense workers.战争使那个地区挤满了军队和防御工程人员。

12 helping   

n.食物的一份&adj.帮助人的，辅助的

参考例句：

• The poor children regularly pony up for a second helping of my hamburger. 那些可怜的孩子们总是要求我把我的汉堡包再给他们一份。
• By doing this, they may at times be helping to restore competition. 这样一来, 他在某些时候,有助于竞争的加强。

13 coordinate   

adj.同等的，协调的；n.同等者；vt.协作，协调

参考例句：

• You must coordinate what you said with what you did.你必须使你的言行一致。
• Maybe we can coordinate the relation of them.或许我们可以调和他们之间的关系。

14 javelin   

n.标枪，投枪

参考例句：

• She achieved a throw of sixty metres in the javelin event.在掷标枪项目中，她掷了60米远。
• The coach taught us how to launch a javelin.教练教我们投标枪。

15 ammunition   

n.军火，弹药

参考例句：

• A few of the jeeps had run out of ammunition.几辆吉普车上的弹药已经用光了。
• They have expended all their ammunition.他们把弹药用光。

16 capability   

n.能力；才能；(pl)可发展的能力或特性等

参考例句：

• She has the capability to become a very fine actress.她有潜力成为杰出演员。
• Organizing a whole department is beyond his capability.组织整个部门是他能力以外的事。

17 capabilities   

n.能力( capability的名词复数 )；可能；容量；[复数]潜在能力

参考例句：

• He was somewhat pompous and had a high opinion of his own capabilities. 他有点自大，自视甚高。 来自辞典例句
• Some programmers use tabs to break complex product capabilities into smaller chunks. 一些程序员认为，标签可以将复杂的功能分为每个窗格一组简单的功能。 来自About Face 3交互设计精髓

18 hardy   

adj.勇敢的，果断的，吃苦的；耐寒的

参考例句：

• The kind of plant is a hardy annual.这种植物是耐寒的一年生植物。
• He is a hardy person.他是一个能吃苦耐劳的人。

19 pawn   

n.典当，抵押，小人物，走卒；v.典当，抵押

参考例句：

• He is contemplating pawning his watch.他正在考虑抵押他的手表。
• It looks as though he is being used as a political pawn by the President.看起来他似乎被总统当作了政治卒子。

20 proxy   

n.代理权，代表权；（对代理人的）委托书；代理人

参考例句：

• You may appoint a proxy to vote for you.你可以委托他人代你投票。
• We enclose a form of proxy for use at the Annual General Meeting.我们附上委任年度大会代表的表格。

21 awe   

n.敬畏，惊惧；vt.使敬畏，使惊惧

参考例句：

• The sight filled us with awe.这景色使我们大为惊叹。
• The approaching tornado struck awe in our hearts.正在逼近的龙卷风使我们惊恐万分。

22 humanitarian   

n.人道主义者，博爱者，基督凡人论者

参考例句：

• She has many humanitarian interests and contributes a lot to them.她拥有很多慈善事业，并作了很大的贡献。
• The British government has now suspended humanitarian aid to the area.英国政府现已暂停对这一地区的人道主义援助。

23 flattened   

[医]（水）平扁的，弄平的

参考例句：

• She flattened her nose and lips against the window. 她把鼻子和嘴唇紧贴着窗户。
• I flattened myself against the wall to let them pass. 我身体紧靠着墙让他们通过。

24 diplomacy   

n.外交；外交手腕，交际手腕

参考例句：

• The talks have now gone into a stage of quiet diplomacy.会谈现在已经进入了“温和外交”阶段。
• This was done through the skill in diplomacy. 这是通过外交手腕才做到的。