美国国家公共电台 NPR--What can a documentary filmmaker add to the record of the Jan. 6 attacks?

What can a documentary filmmaker add to the record of the Jan. 6 attacks?

Transcript¹

NPR's Steve Inskeep talks to Alex Holder² after his testimony³ to the House Select Committee, about his documentary with exclusive footage inside the Trump⁴ White House before and after the insurrection.

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

Next, let's hear a man who's been cooperating with the investigation⁵ of the January 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol. Alex Holder is a filmmaker from the U.K. And he interviewed then-President Trump for a documentary before and after the attack.

(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY, "UNPRECEDENTED")

ALEX HOLDER: Can we talk for a minute about January 6?

DONALD TRUMP: Well, it was a sad day. But it was a day where there was great anger in our country. People went to Washington primarily because they were angry with an election that they think was rigged.

INSKEEP: The January 6 panel has now subpoenaed⁶ that footage. Alex Holder turned it over and spoke⁷ with the committee yesterday in a private session. And he is now on the line. Mr. Holder, welcome to the program.

HOLDER: Hello. Good morning. How are you?

INSKEEP: What is your project?

HOLDER: So the project is a three-part series about the U.S. 2020 presidential election. And it starts from around sort of September, 2020. And it runs all the way through until after the election, after sort of the chaos⁸ and tragedy of January 6, up until sort of June of 2021.

INSKEEP: OK. So...

HOLDER: And we follow the - sorry.

INSKEEP: Go on.

HOLDER: So we follow the - President Trump's three eldest⁹ children, as they sort of crisscross America during the election campaign. And then we conduct interviews with them directly and also with the president himself as well.

INSKEEP: OK. So you got a lot of interviews here. What kind of access did you get to the president?

HOLDER: So I interviewed the president three times - once in the White House, once in Mar-a-Lago and then again in Bedminster at his golf course. And then we also joined the president on a few of his rallies during the campaign and then also after the election at his sort of, quote, "stop the steal" rallies as well.

INSKEEP: You've released some clips of your footage here. There's one that's particularly amusing that you put on Twitter. Amusing or interesting - I don't know what the word is. He's preparing for an interview. He's settling down in his chair. And he's very, very image conscious. He is thinking about what is in the frame. What's happening there?

HOLDER: So it was very - actually a very interesting moment. And I think that on that day - you know, this was about a month after the election. And I had absolutely - I genuinely didn't think he was going to come, actually. And then - so he then comes in. I hear Secret Service outside saying mogul on the move. And he starts walking down this beautiful sort of red carpet, into the diplomatic reception room in the White House and sits down. And it was obviously a surreal moment. I'm there across from the sitting president of the United States, who hasn't spoken to any reporters at all during this period because he sort of barricaded¹⁰ himself in the White House. And then he starts moving around a glass of water for about a minute and a half, which was sort of quite surreal. I mean, the entire thing was just fascinating. And I think what's interesting is that different people can interpret that in different ways in terms of what he is. It sort of is an insight to his character, I thought, which is quite interesting.

INSKEEP: Well, it certainly shows he pays attention to his image.

HOLDER: Indeed. Absolutely.

INSKEEP: How would you describe his state of mind about the election that he had obviously lost?

HOLDER: Well, he absolutely believes that he won the election without any question. And the truth is, is that before that interview, I did not think that he was - that he actually believed that he had won. I thought that it was all sort of rhetoric¹¹.

INSKEEP: You believed that he believed it?

HOLDER: Absolutely. Absolutely. There's no question. And that was terrifying, actually. That was absolutely terrifying.

INSKEEP: Did you present him with any of the facts?

HOLDER: So I let him come to his own conclusions himself, you know? I didn't want to sort of be there to debate with the president of the United States, you know? He knows what he knows and - or rather, what he doesn't know, in fact. And the idea of trying to rationalize with somebody who, you know, is seeing all the evidence and hearing it all and is then saying the opposite seems to be sort of a slight waste of time, frankly¹². And I think, especially with the former president, the idea that I, a British filmmaker, is going to try and persuade him that, actually, you know, what he's been saying for the last month or so is wrong...

INSKEEP: Sure.

HOLDER: ...Is just not really going to go anywhere.

INSKEEP: But then the question arises. This is a man who is very repetitive, has said the same things over and over and over again. It's very difficult to get him off of what is, in his mind, is his script. Was he at any moment any different in your interviews than in every other public appearance?

HOLDER: I think there were moments, yes, in some of these interviews that we conducted, so especially when we talked about things outside of the election. So this documentary isn't solely¹³ about the 2020 election campaign. It's also a - sort of a portrait of him and his three children and the dynamics¹⁴ between his three eldest kids and sort of a succession-type vibe. Who will take over from President Trump, you know, at some point down the line, with respect to his kids? Who will take over from the Trump - you know, in the Trump family and be in charge? And I think that is actually very interesting as well. And I think you get to see a side of him which people haven't really seen before, a side that shows sort of, perhaps, a sympathy or a pride towards his kids, but also moments of maybe some sort of jealousy¹⁵ when he sees his kids getting a huge amount of attention from crowds during the election campaign.

So it's a really interesting portrait. Obviously, the election is a key part. And then, with respect to his position on the election, I think there is a fundamental difference between Donald Trump standing¹⁶ up on a stage in - at a rally and sort of, you know, espousing¹⁷ his rhetoric in quite a belligerent¹⁸ way to him sitting in the White House as the sitting president of the United States and looking me in the eye and saying that, you know, President Biden, that guy didn't get 80 million votes. There's no way. Or when he says to me that the Georgia election officials are stupid people, now, these are Republicans as well. Or when he says to me that he needs to find brave judges who will, you know, agree with his position on the election is pretty fascinating and also quite terrifying.

INSKEEP: If it's clear - in the few seconds we have, if it's clear to you that he believed the false things that he was saying, is it also clear to you that he had intent to do something or cause something or incite¹⁹ something violent to the Capitol on January 6?

HOLDER: So I don't know, with respect to his intent. All I know is, is that there's no question that the events that took place on January 6 could only have happened because of the position that he had vis a vis the election.

INSKEEP: Meaning that it was his words that would have caused people to do that, otherwise it wouldn't have happened?

HOLDER: I mean, yeah, I don't see any other way that could have happened. Exactly.

INSKEEP: Alex Holder is a documentary filmmaker who interviewed then-President Trump before January 6 and former President Trump after his departure from office and has now himself been interviewed by the January 6 committee. Mr. Holder, thanks very much for your insights, really appreciate it.

HOLDER: Thank you very much.

(SOUNDBITE OF FELBM'S "REFLECTIONS")

1 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

2 holder   

n.持有者，占有者；(台，架等)支持物

参考例句：

• The holder of the office of chairman is reponsible for arranging meetings.担任主席职位的人负责安排会议。
• That runner is the holder of the world record for the hundred-yard dash.那位运动员是一百码赛跑世界纪录的保持者。

3 testimony   

n.证词；见证，证明

参考例句：

• The testimony given by him is dubious.他所作的证据是可疑的。
• He was called in to bear testimony to what the police officer said.他被传入为警官所说的话作证。

4 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

5 investigation   

n.调查，调查研究

参考例句：

• In an investigation,a new fact became known, which told against him.在调查中新发现了一件对他不利的事实。
• He drew the conclusion by building on his own investigation.他根据自己的调查研究作出结论。

6 subpoenaed   

v.（用传票）传唤（某人）( subpoena的过去式和过去分词 )

参考例句：

• The court subpoenaed her to appear as a witness. 法庭传唤她出庭作证。
• The finance director is subpoenaed by prosecution. 财务经理被检查机关传讯。 来自《简明英汉词典》

7 spoke   

n.（车轮的）辐条；轮辐；破坏某人的计划；阻挠某人的行动 v.讲，谈（speak的过去式）；说；演说；从某种观点来说

参考例句：

• They sourced the spoke nuts from our company.他们的轮辐螺帽是从我们公司获得的。
• The spokes of a wheel are the bars that connect the outer ring to the centre.辐条是轮子上连接外圈与中心的条棒。

8 chaos   

n.混乱，无秩序

参考例句：

• After the failure of electricity supply the city was in chaos.停电后，城市一片混乱。
• The typhoon left chaos behind it.台风后一片混乱。

9 eldest   

adj.最年长的，最年老的

参考例句：

• The King's eldest son is the heir to the throne.国王的长子是王位的继承人。
• The castle and the land are entailed on the eldest son.城堡和土地限定由长子继承。

10 barricaded   

设路障于，以障碍物阻塞( barricade的过去式和过去分词 )； 设路障[防御工事]保卫或固守

参考例句：

• The police barricaded the entrance. 警方在入口处设置了路障。
• The doors had been barricaded. 门都被堵住了。

11 rhetoric   

n.修辞学，浮夸之言语

参考例句：

• Do you know something about rhetoric?你懂点修辞学吗？
• Behind all the rhetoric,his relations with the army are dangerously poised.在冠冕堂皇的言辞背后，他和军队的关系岌岌可危。

12 frankly   

adv.坦白地，直率地；坦率地说

参考例句：

• To speak frankly, I don't like the idea at all.老实说，我一点也不赞成这个主意。
• Frankly speaking, I'm not opposed to reform.坦率地说，我不反对改革。

13 solely   

adv.仅仅，唯一地

参考例句：

• Success should not be measured solely by educational achievement.成功与否不应只用学业成绩来衡量。
• The town depends almost solely on the tourist trade.这座城市几乎完全靠旅游业维持。

14 dynamics   

n.力学，动力学，动力，原动力；动态

参考例句：

• In order to succeed,you must master complicated knowledge of dynamics.要取得胜利，你必须掌握很复杂的动力学知识。
• Dynamics is a discipline that cannot be mastered without extensive practice.动力学是一门不做大量习题就不能掌握的学科。

15 jealousy   

n.妒忌，嫉妒，猜忌

参考例句：

• Some women have a disposition to jealousy.有些女人生性爱妒忌。
• I can't support your jealousy any longer.我再也无法忍受你的嫉妒了。

16 standing   

n.持续，地位；adj.永久的，不动的，直立的，不流动的

参考例句：

• After the earthquake only a few houses were left standing.地震过后只有几幢房屋还立着。
• They're standing out against any change in the law.他们坚决反对对法律做任何修改。

17 espousing   

v.（决定）支持，拥护（目标、主张等）( espouse的现在分词 )

参考例句：

18 belligerent   

adj.好战的，挑起战争的；n.交战国，交战者

参考例句：

• He had a belligerent aspect.他有种好斗的神色。
• Our government has forbidden exporting the petroleum to the belligerent countries.我们政府已经禁止向交战国输出石油。

19 incite   

v.引起，激动，煽动

参考例句：

• I wanted to point out he was a very good speaker, and could incite a crowd.我想说明他曾是一个非常出色的演讲家，非常会调动群众的情绪。
• Just a few words will incite him into action.他只需几句话一将，就会干。