美国国家公共电台 NPR--What we learned from the Jan 6. committee hearing on extremism

What we learned from the Jan 6. committee hearing on extremism

Transcript¹

NPR's Rachel Martin speaks with Kimberly Wehle, a law professor and author of "How to Read the Constitution and Why," about the key takeaways from the seventh House Jan. 6 committee hearing.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST:

For more on the latest revelations out of the January 6 committee hearing, we go to Kimberly Wehle. She's a visiting law professor at American University and the author of "How To Read The Constitution And Why." Kim, thanks for being back on the show.

KIMBERLY WEHLE: Good morning, Rachel.

MARTIN: You wrote in Politico that the Justice Department must indict² former President Trump³ as a matter of accountability. Does the Constitution and legal precedent⁴ allow for that?

WEHLE: Well, there is no legal precedent, but it certainly allows for it in that we have a United States Code, federal criminal laws that are set forth⁵, and Donald Trump is now a private citizen. So long as the five-year general - federal statute⁶ of limitations has not passed for DOJ actions, he's as vulnerable to criminal action as any other American. The internal DOJ memo⁷ saying you can't prosecute⁸ sitting presidents doesn't protect him. So it really comes down, A, to - of course, to evidence and facts, but, B, really to political will.

And I believe that one of the goals of this January 6 committee is to educate the American people, to potentially warm them up to the concept that something needs to be done to reestablish guardrails around the White House or, as I say in the piece, we are basically greenlighting widespread crime sprees in the Oval Office with unlimited⁹ sort of criminal justice and national security and, you know, law enforcement powers, military powers. Because all of the other parts of the Constitution, primarily the impeachment¹⁰ clause, that are meant to sort of - as a - you know, a stopgap or a slow-down sign for presidents have just kind of gone out the window.

MARTIN: Explain what the attorney general, Merrick Garland, has to weigh. I mean, is there an inherent risk in prosecuting¹¹ a U.S. president, even one who's left?

WEHLE: Well, you know, there's definitely this idea of, OK, there could be payback in the next administration, and we're just creating a situation where presidents are bullied¹² by justice departments of opposing personal - opposing political parties. But you know what, Rachel? You know, I think we're so far beyond those kind of old-school considerations because what we saw yesterday was kind of a preview of what Jamie Raskin has said will happen again. That is a violent mob potentially joining forces with people in power - in this moment, in the GOP - seeking a violent, bloody¹³ coup¹⁴. That is the future. You know, Donald Trump said it in his inaugural¹⁵ address.

He promised American carnage, and he delivered. And if it happens again, my guess is it's going to be successful. And every American has to decide - right? - like, does this matter? You know, Abraham Lincoln warned - a hundred and sixty years, January 1861 - about the concern that others might, quote, "seek to turn a free people back into the hateful paths of despotism." And he said, quote, "we must study and understand the points of danger." And, you know, it gives me chills thinking about Lincoln sort of looking at these hearings and saying, you know, my fellow Americans, this is our moment. This is the moment to come back and save this beautiful republic.

MARTIN: So it's my understanding that in order to prove a charge like seditious conspiracy¹⁶, which would be a possibility, that the committee has to really demonstrate that there's a direct link between the former president and these far-right extremist groups, like the Oath Keepers, the Proud Boys, who rioted at the Capitol. Do you think the committee was successful in drawing that connection?

WEHLE: Well, you mentioned seditious conspiracy. That is a meeting of the minds. And sedition¹⁷ is the notion of overthrowing¹⁸ the government. You know, we did see yesterday evidence from people who were in charge of managing the stage and the rally, that there was an expectation of violence in the White House - and inside GOP members of Congress and a December 21 meeting - and that there was expectations that Donald Trump would, at some point, tell people to march to the Capitol, that that wasn't the plan for many of the people that showed up.

Do we have, you know, enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt? It's impossible to know. And I think, again, it's important to distinguish between what Congress is doing and what the Justice Department would be doing. There are different standards. But, you know, there's also questions of inciting¹⁹ an insurrection or obstruction²⁰ of official proceeding²¹ or witness tampering²². It's - the Justice Department doesn't have to get to the level of seditious conspiracy, adding Donald Trump to the charges he's already brought - they've already brought against others in order to justify²³ some indictment²⁴.

MARTIN: And meanwhile, the lie lives on, right? I mean, even as the committee tries to publicly dispel²⁵ Trump's election lies, we see the rise in the numbers of state officials who don't believe the 2020 election was legitimate²⁶, including the new secretary of state in Florida.

WEHLE: Right. I mean, The Washington Post said there are 400 people on the ballot²⁷, this or the next election, that believe in the big lie. And these people are in the bowels²⁸ of these - the administration of elections. This isn't just governors. People listening to this need to vote in November and get those folks out of government, or we really are, to quote Justice Douglas, "seeing the twilight²⁹ of American democracy." It's not hyperbole.

MARTIN: University of Baltimore law professor Kimberly Wehle. Thank you.

WEHLE: Thank you, Rachel.

1 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

2 indict   

v.起诉，控告，指控

参考例句：

• You can't indict whole people for the crudeness of a few.您不能因少数人的粗暴行为就控诉整个民族。
• I can indict you for abducting high school student.我可以告你诱拐中学生。

3 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

4 precedent   

n.先例，前例；惯例；adj.在前的，在先的

参考例句：

• Is there a precedent for what you want me to do?你要我做的事有前例可援吗？
• This is a wonderful achievement without precedent in Chinese history.这是中国历史上亘古未有的奇绩。

5 forth   

adv.向前；向外，往外

参考例句：

• The wind moved the trees gently back and forth.风吹得树轻轻地来回摇晃。
• He gave forth a series of works in rapid succession.他很快连续发表了一系列的作品。

6 statute   

n.成文法，法令，法规；章程，规则，条例

参考例句：

• Protection for the consumer is laid down by statute.保障消费者利益已在法令里作了规定。
• The next section will consider this environmental statute in detail.下一部分将详细论述环境法令的问题。

7 memo   

n.照会，备忘录；便笺；通知书；规章

参考例句：

• Do you want me to send the memo out?您要我把这份备忘录分发出去吗？
• Can you type a memo for me?您能帮我打一份备忘录吗？

8 prosecute   

vt.告发；进行；vi.告发，起诉，作检察官

参考例句：

• I am trying my best to prosecute my duties.我正在尽力履行我的职责。
• Is there enough evidence to prosecute?有没有起诉的足够证据？

9 unlimited   

adj.无限的，不受控制的，无条件的

参考例句：

• They flew over the unlimited reaches of the Arctic.他们飞过了茫茫无边的北极上空。
• There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris.在技术方面自以为是会很危险。

10 impeachment   

n.弹劾；控告；怀疑

参考例句：

• Impeachment is considered a drastic measure in the United States.在美国，弹劾被视为一种非常激烈的措施。
• The verdict resulting from his impeachment destroyed his political career.他遭弹劾后得到的判决毁了他的政治生涯。

11 prosecuting   

检举、告发某人( prosecute的现在分词 )； 对某人提起公诉； 继续从事（某事物）； 担任控方律师

参考例句：

• The witness was cross-examined by the prosecuting counsel. 证人接受控方律师的盘问。
• Every point made by the prosecuting attorney was telling. 检查官提出的每一点都是有力的。

12 bullied   

adj.被欺负了v.恐吓，威逼( bully的过去式和过去分词 )

参考例句：

• My son is being bullied at school. 我儿子在学校里受欺负。
• The boy bullied the small girl into giving him all her money. 那男孩威逼那个小女孩把所有的钱都给他。 来自《简明英汉词典》

13 bloody   

adj.非常的的；流血的；残忍的；adv.很；vt.血染

参考例句：

• He got a bloody nose in the fight.他在打斗中被打得鼻子流血。
• He is a bloody fool.他是一个十足的笨蛋。

14 coup   

n.政变；突然而成功的行动

参考例句：

• The monarch was ousted by a military coup.那君主被军事政变者废黜了。
• That government was overthrown in a military coup three years ago.那个政府在3年前的军事政变中被推翻。

15 inaugural   

adj.就职的；n.就职典礼

参考例句：

• We listened to the President's inaugural speech on the radio yesterday.昨天我们通过无线电听了总统的就职演说。
• Professor Pearson gave the inaugural lecture in the new lecture theatre.皮尔逊教授在新的阶梯讲堂发表了启用演说。

16 conspiracy   

n.阴谋，密谋，共谋

参考例句：

• The men were found guilty of conspiracy to murder.这些人被裁决犯有阴谋杀人罪。
• He claimed that it was all a conspiracy against him.他声称这一切都是一场针对他的阴谋。

17 sedition   

n.煽动叛乱

参考例句：

• Government officials charged him with sedition.政府官员指控他煽动人们造反。
• His denial of sedition was a denial of violence.他对煽动叛乱的否定又是对暴力的否定。

18 overthrowing   

v.打倒，推翻( overthrow的现在分词 )；使终止

参考例句：

• They succeeded in overthrowing the fascist dictatorship. 他们成功推翻了法西斯独裁统治。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• I always delight in overthrowing those kinds of schemes. 我一向喜欢戳穿人家的诡计。 来自辞典例句

19 inciting   

刺激的，煽动的

参考例句：

• What are you up to inciting mutiny and insubordination? 你们干吗在这里煽动骚动的叛乱呀。
• He was charged with inciting people to rebel. 他被控煽动民众起来叛乱。

20 obstruction   

n.阻塞，堵塞；障碍物

参考例句：

• She was charged with obstruction of a police officer in the execution of his duty.她被指控妨碍警察执行任务。
• The road was cleared from obstruction.那条路已被清除了障碍。

21 proceeding   

n.行动，进行，(pl.)会议录，学报

参考例句：

• This train is now proceeding from Paris to London.这次列车从巴黎开往伦敦。
• The work is proceeding briskly.工作很有生气地进展着。

22 tampering   

v.窜改( tamper的现在分词 )；篡改；（用不正当手段）影响；瞎摆弄

参考例句：

• Two policemen were accused of tampering with the evidence. 有两名警察被控篡改证据。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• As Harry London had forecast, Brookside's D-day caught many meter-tampering offenders. 正如哈里·伦敦预见到的那样，布鲁克赛德的D日行动抓住了不少非法改装仪表的人。 来自辞典例句

23 justify   

vt.证明…正当(或有理)，为…辩护

参考例句：

• He tried to justify his absence with lame excuses.他想用站不住脚的借口为自己的缺席辩解。
• Can you justify your rude behavior to me?你能向我证明你的粗野行为是有道理的吗？

24 indictment   

n.起诉；诉状

参考例句：

• He handed up the indictment to the supreme court.他把起诉书送交最高法院。
• They issued an indictment against them.他们起诉了他们。

25 dispel   

vt.驱走，驱散，消除

参考例句：

• I tried in vain to dispel her misgivings.我试图消除她的疑虑，但没有成功。
• We hope the programme will dispel certain misconceptions about the disease.我们希望这个节目能消除对这种疾病的一些误解。

26 legitimate   

adj.合法的，合理的，合乎逻辑的；v.使合法

参考例句：

• Sickness is a legitimate reason for asking for leave.生病是请假的一个正当的理由。
• That's a perfectly legitimate fear.怀有这种恐惧完全在情理之中。

27 ballot   

n.（不记名）投票，投票总数，投票权；vi.投票

参考例句：

• The members have demanded a ballot.会员们要求投票表决。
• The union said they will ballot members on whether to strike.工会称他们将要求会员投票表决是否罢工。

28 bowels   

n.肠，内脏，内部；肠( bowel的名词复数 )；内部，最深处

参考例句：

• Salts is a medicine that causes movements of the bowels. 泻盐是一种促使肠子运动的药物。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• The cabins are in the bowels of the ship. 舱房设在船腹内。 来自《简明英汉词典》

29 twilight   

n.暮光，黄昏；暮年，晚期，衰落时期

参考例句：

• Twilight merged into darkness.夕阳的光辉融于黑暗中。
• Twilight was sweet with the smell of lilac and freshly turned earth.薄暮充满紫丁香和新翻耕的泥土的香味。