美国国家公共电台 NPR--A former federal prosecutor reacts to the redacted Mar-a-Lago affidavit

A former federal prosecutor¹ reacts to the redacted Mar-a-Lago affidavit²

Transcript³

NPR's Steve Inskeep talks with former federal prosecutor Brandon Van Grack about the investigation⁴ into materials seized from former President Donald Trump⁵'s Florida home.

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

Brandon Van Grack joins us next. He's a former federal prosecutor who has investigated and prosecuted⁷ cases involving the Espionage⁸ Act. He also was part of Robert Mueller's special counsel team. Welcome to the program.

BRANDON VAN GRACK: Good morning. Thank you.

INSKEEP: OK. So we heard the description of the intelligence according to the warrant, the property receipt and the redacted affidavit, its description of human intelligence and signals intelligence. Why would it be so sensitive, potentially, that that kind of intelligence might be compromised?

VAN GRACK: Well, the reason these documents have these markings on them are to signal that these sources and methods and expert within the intelligence community has determined⁹ that if this information were disclosed to unauthorized individuals, these sources and methods could be compromised. These human sources, these methods to collect information could be compromised and impair¹⁰ not just our government's ability to collect this information but could also harm individuals. And it's the reason why there are so many layers of protection in terms of handling it.

INSKEEP: I want to be totally clear about this. We're talking about somebody who may be an informant. Or we might call them a spy in another country. And if their identity is revealed, it's not just that they'd be compromised. They might be killed.

VAN GRACK: So that's right. But it's also - it's important to qualify this, which is we don't know. And this is the reason why the letter from the director of National Intelligence was so important to get that confirmation¹¹, although it's not a surprise, which is this is what the intelligence community needs to be doing right now, should be doing, which is receiving and reviewing this information and determining exactly what you said, conducting that risk assessment¹² and determining - if there is, in fact, this risk - what they can do to mitigate¹³ it. And it's the reason why, from the Department of Justice perspective, from the FBI's perspective, obtaining these documents and providing them to the intelligence community is and always was the top priority of the government.

INSKEEP: Meaning that whether you prosecute⁶ anybody or not, you needed to get the documents back and understand what the danger is here.

VAN GRACK: That's exactly right.

INSKEEP: I want to understand a few things that the former president and some of his supporters have said and what the implications of them are. Former President Trump has made a claim for which there is no documentation whatsoever¹⁴, that he had a standing¹⁵ order to declassify¹⁶ various documents. And if the former president declassified¹⁷ them, are they any less sensitive, any less hazardous¹⁸ to the United States that they would be out in the world?

VAN GRACK: So that's a great question. And the answer is no. From a national security perspective, it doesn't change that calculation. Or at least, it would not appear to change the calculation. From a criminal prosecution¹⁹ standpoint, it could. It's a qualifier. It could. But there's one other point that's really important because on your show, you talked about the fact that there was this affidavit that was just unredacted that provided some information. And there are two really important pieces of that that relate to the question you just asked, which is, first, based on what was unredacted, the former president's attorneys do not appear to have made that argument to the Department of Justice, do not appear to have affirmatively indicated that this information was declassified. It says he could declassify it. And the second piece is, this unredacted affidavit, it appears the Department of Justice at this time does not believe that occurred. It uses language in the affidavit, it uses language in its communications to the former president that does not indicate to me that they believe this information at this time was, in fact, declassified.

INSKEEP: The former president's supporters have also honed in on the fact that there were things redacted. And it's entire pages at times that are cut out. It's not just a stray word. There are many pages or several pages missing from what we were able to see. Granting that we don't know what's in there, what sort of information would be redacted in this case?

VAN GRACK: Well, I will say, I think the most interesting redactions are paragraphs 62 through 76 of the document. And those redactions pertain²⁰ to the moments or time period after the Department of Justice unmistakably communicated to the former president's attorneys that there was concern that there were classified documents being stored that were not being protected and secured. And they were warned that this information needed to be secured and protected until further notice. And then there are 15 paragraphs that are redacted in that - in the affidavit. And I think those 15 paragraphs are the core as to whether, in fact, there will be criminal charges here. We don't know what that information is, but something happened after that warning that materially changed this investigation.

INSKEEP: In a few seconds, what do you make of the long timeline here? The National Archives asked for the records in May 2021. Trump seems to, according to the affidavit, have put them off until December 2021. Then they, quote, "found some records." What do you make of the long timeline?

VAN GRACK: There are two pieces, which is - first is, really, an extended effort to be accommodating, to collect this information. But the second piece is that that means that there have been many months - either 12 or 19 months - in which a substantial volume of classified information has been unsecured and unprotected. And that raises real national security issues.

INSKEEP: Brandon Van Grack, former federal prosecutor. Thanks so much.

VAN GRACK: Thank you.

1 prosecutor   

n.起诉人；检察官，公诉人

参考例句：

• The defender argued down the prosecutor at the court.辩护人在法庭上驳倒了起诉人。
• The prosecutor would tear your testimony to pieces.检查官会把你的证言驳得体无完肤。

2 affidavit   

n.宣誓书

参考例句：

• I gave an affidavit to the judge about the accident I witnessed.我向法官提交了一份关于我目击的事故的证词。
• The affidavit was formally read to the court.书面证词正式向出席法庭的人宣读了。

3 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

4 investigation   

n.调查，调查研究

参考例句：

• In an investigation,a new fact became known, which told against him.在调查中新发现了一件对他不利的事实。
• He drew the conclusion by building on his own investigation.他根据自己的调查研究作出结论。

5 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

6 prosecute   

vt.告发；进行；vi.告发，起诉，作检察官

参考例句：

• I am trying my best to prosecute my duties.我正在尽力履行我的职责。
• Is there enough evidence to prosecute?有没有起诉的足够证据？

7 prosecuted   

a.被起诉的

参考例句：

• The editors are being prosecuted for obscenity. 编辑因刊载污秽文字而被起诉。
• The company was prosecuted for breaching the Health and Safety Act. 这家公司被控违反《卫生安全条例》。

8 espionage   

n.间谍行为，谍报活动

参考例句：

• The authorities have arrested several people suspected of espionage.官方已经逮捕了几个涉嫌从事间谍活动的人。
• Neither was there any hint of espionage in Hanley's early life.汉利的早期生活也毫无进行间谍活动的迹象。

9 determined   

adj.坚定的；有决心的

参考例句：

• I have determined on going to Tibet after graduation.我已决定毕业后去西藏。
• He determined to view the rooms behind the office.他决定查看一下办公室后面的房间。

10 impair   

v.损害，损伤；削弱，减少

参考例句：

• Loud noise can impair your hearing.巨大的噪音有损听觉。
• It can not impair the intellectual vigor of the young.这不能磨灭青年人思想活力。

11 confirmation   

n.证实，确认，批准

参考例句：

• We are waiting for confirmation of the news.我们正在等待证实那个消息。
• We need confirmation in writing before we can send your order out.给你们发送订购的货物之前，我们需要书面确认。

12 assessment   

n.评价；评估；对财产的估价，被估定的金额

参考例句：

• This is a very perceptive assessment of the situation.这是一个对该情况的极富洞察力的评价。
• What is your assessment of the situation?你对时局的看法如何？

13 mitigate   

vt.（使）减轻，（使）缓和

参考例句：

• The government is trying to mitigate the effects of inflation.政府正试图缓和通货膨胀的影响。
• Governments should endeavour to mitigate distress.政府应努力缓解贫困问题。

14 whatsoever   

adv.（用于否定句中以加强语气）任何；pron.无论什么

参考例句：

• There's no reason whatsoever to turn down this suggestion.没有任何理由拒绝这个建议。
• All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you,do ye even so to them.你想别人对你怎样，你就怎样对人。

15 standing   

n.持续，地位；adj.永久的，不动的，直立的，不流动的

参考例句：

• After the earthquake only a few houses were left standing.地震过后只有几幢房屋还立着。
• They're standing out against any change in the law.他们坚决反对对法律做任何修改。

16 declassify   

v.撤销保密

参考例句：

• These reports were only declassified last year.这些报告去年才被撤销了密级。
• Does the president have the power to declassify information?总统有权利解密相关信息吗？

17 declassified   

adj.解密的v.对（机密文件等）销密( declassify的过去式和过去分词 )

参考例句：

• Thousands of classified documents have now been declassified. 数以千计的保密文件现在被解密了。
• The software used for Siemens S7-300 encryption logic block declassified. 此软件用于对西门子S7-300加密逻辑块解密。

18 hazardous   

adj.(有)危险的，冒险的；碰运气的

参考例句：

• These conditions are very hazardous for shipping.这些情况对航海非常不利。
• Everybody said that it was a hazardous investment.大家都说那是一次危险的投资。

19 prosecution   

n.起诉，告发，检举，执行，经营

参考例句：

• The Smiths brought a prosecution against the organizers.史密斯家对组织者们提出起诉。
• He attempts to rebut the assertion made by the prosecution witness.他试图反驳原告方证人所作的断言。

20 pertain   

v.(to)附属，从属；关于；有关；适合，相称

参考例句：

• His remark did not pertain to the question.他的话同这个问题不相干。
• It does not pertain to you to instruct him.你不适合教训他。