美国国家公共电台 NPR--Moscow and Ukraine dispute the number of Russian soldiers killed in blast

Moscow and Ukraine dispute the number of Russian soldiers killed in blast

Transcript¹

NPR's Rob Schmitz talks to Alexander Gabuev of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace about Ukraine carrying out a strike on Russian troops. Ukraine says the death toll² is in the hundreds.

ROB SCHMITZ, HOST:

Ukraine has carried out one of its deadliest attacks since the Russian invasion began. The New Year's Eve strike destroyed a barracks the Russian army was using to house newly mobilized soldiers in the Donetsk region. Russian officials acknowledge that 63 soldiers died. The Ukrainian government claims the death toll is in the hundreds. For more on this, we turn to Alexander Gabuev. He's a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace recently in Moscow. He joins us now from Istanbul. Alexander, good morning.

ALEXANDER GABUEV: Good morning.

SCHMITZ: What can be confirmed about the scope of this strike and its toll on the Russian army?

GABUEV: We don't have precise data. But it's the first time that the Russian Ministry³ of Defense⁴ actually confirmed such a huge loss. And 63 people killed on a spot in just one single strike is the highest casualty that the Russian government has ever admitted. But beyond the official lines, we have multiple confirmations⁵ on the Russian side from so-called war correspondents. These are the members of the Russian official propaganda media that are working in the front lines. So they confirmed that the death toll is really in the hundreds and is in line with what the Ukrainian government is saying.

SCHMITZ: Russian military bloggers said the Russian army was storing ammunition⁶ in the same building as the troop quarters. Why would commanders do that when they had to know that they would certainly be targets for Ukrainian rockets?

GABUEV: We definitely see a certain pattern here. The Russian military has made those mistakes very early on. And once the HIMARS - the high-precision weapons - that the Americans sent to Ukrainians throughout summer arrived, there were multiple incidents when the Ukrainians, having the right intelligence, were able to strike the enemy targets deep behind the front lines. And after 10 months of this war, mass incidents like this have mainly disappeared. The Russians have adapted. But this time, it took a big mistake of a commander to have troops together and with ammunition. So it shows that some commanders learned nothing.

At the same time, it also exposes the logistical problems that the Russians have. They have mobilized 250,000 troops throughout this fall and early winter, send half of that to the front lines. And it's just very difficult for the Russians to supply smaller groups, bringing water, hot food to various different buildings. So they tend to group them in larger buildings. And because these soldiers were allegedly calling home using open cellphone lines, that definitely gave the Ukrainians all the data they need to perform this strike.

SCHMITZ: Wow. And, you know, what's somewhat unusual about the aftermath of this attack is something you mentioned earlier, is that even the Kremlin is admitting big losses on its side, something it often avoids doing. How are Russian civilians⁷ reacting to news of these strikes?

GABUEV: To me, the Kremlin's statement - or to be precise, the ministry of defense - just shows how big the incident is. It's so big that you cannot say it never happened. So you need to admit something. But you probably want to downplay the number of casualties. And it looks like there will be a lot of body bags arriving to - right of the city where all of the killed soldiers have been mobilized from, and that the amount of grief will be there. But unfortunately, the Russian society remains⁸ very heavily oppressed and atomized. The regime is very confident and capable in instilling⁹ brutality¹⁰ and fear and just making all of the anti-war protests really very risky¹¹ enterprise in Russia, both for the families of soldiers killed and wounded and for anti-war activists¹².

SCHMITZ: So what you're saying is a lot of the pro-Kremlin propaganda is actually still having a bigger impact than, you know, the division of body bags coming home to Russia.

GABUEV: That's true. And the problem is that the war propaganda is saying that, oh, these commanders are incompetent¹³. They're nonprofessional. They should be court-martialed and replaced with commanders who are more capable and who would help us to win this war. It's not that the amount of body bags arriving back home leads anybody in public to say, oh, this is a terrible war that cost us so many lives, will cost us probably more and the best way to stop it is actually retreat and withdraw and seek a diplomatic resolution with Ukraine.

SCHMITZ: That's Alexander Gabuev, senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Alexander, thank you.

GABUEV: Thanks.

1 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

2 toll   

n.过路(桥)费；损失，伤亡人数；v.敲(钟)

参考例句：

• The hailstone took a heavy toll of the crops in our village last night.昨晚那场冰雹损坏了我们村的庄稼。
• The war took a heavy toll of human life.这次战争夺去了许多人的生命。

3 ministry   

n.(政府的)部；牧师

参考例句：

• They sent a deputation to the ministry to complain.他们派了一个代表团到部里投诉。
• We probed the Air Ministry statements.我们调查了空军部的记录。

4 defense   

n.防御，保卫；[pl.]防务工事；辩护，答辩

参考例句：

• The accused has the right to defense.被告人有权获得辩护。
• The war has impacted the area with military and defense workers.战争使那个地区挤满了军队和防御工程人员。

5 confirmations   

证实( confirmation的名词复数 )； 证据； 确认； （基督教中的）坚信礼

参考例句：

• Never use transitory dialogs as error messages or confirmations. 绝不要用临时对话框作为错误信息框或确认信息框。 来自About Face 3交互设计精髓
• Dismissing confirmations thus becomes as routine as issuing them. 因此关闭确认对话框和发起确认对话框一样成为例行公事。 来自About Face 3交互设计精髓

6 ammunition   

n.军火，弹药

参考例句：

• A few of the jeeps had run out of ammunition.几辆吉普车上的弹药已经用光了。
• They have expended all their ammunition.他们把弹药用光。

7 civilians   

平民，百姓( civilian的名词复数 )； 老百姓

参考例句：

• the bloody massacre of innocent civilians 对无辜平民的血腥屠杀
• At least 300 civilians are unaccounted for after the bombing raids. 遭轰炸袭击之后，至少有300名平民下落不明。

8 remains   

n.剩余物，残留物；遗体，遗迹

参考例句：

• He ate the remains of food hungrily.他狼吞虎咽地吃剩余的食物。
• The remains of the meal were fed to the dog.残羹剩饭喂狗了。

9 instilling   

v.逐渐使某人获得（某种可取的品质），逐步灌输( instil的现在分词 )；逐渐使某人获得（某种可取的品质），逐步灌输( instill的现在分词 )

参考例句：

• Make sure your subordinates understand your sense of urgency and work toward instilling this in allsubordinates. 确保你的下属同样具备判断紧急事件的意识，在工作中潜移默化地灌输给他们。 来自互联网

10 brutality   

n.野蛮的行为，残忍，野蛮

参考例句：

• The brutality of the crime has appalled the public. 罪行之残暴使公众大为震惊。
• a general who was infamous for his brutality 因残忍而恶名昭彰的将军

11 risky   

adj.有风险的，冒险的

参考例句：

• It may be risky but we will chance it anyhow.这可能有危险，但我们无论如何要冒一冒险。
• He is well aware how risky this investment is.他心里对这项投资的风险十分清楚。

12 activists   

n.（政治活动的）积极分子，活动家( activist的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• His research work was attacked by animal rights activists . 他的研究受到了动物权益维护者的抨击。
• Party activists with lower middle class pedigrees are numerous. 党的激进分子中有很多出身于中产阶级下层。 来自《简明英汉词典》

13 incompetent   

adj.无能力的，不能胜任的

参考例句：

• He is utterly incompetent at his job.他完全不能胜任他的工作。
• He is incompetent at working with his hands.他动手能力不行。